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TR4/4A Latest and greatest for water pumps

ghawk16

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So need to get a new water pump. I have the pulley. But doing some searches here and other places it seems when you buy a pump it's good to buy the pulley with it due to issues with shaft play, key sizes, etc. I don't care too much about going uprated, but is TRF still the best place to go? They seem to have the most positive reviews. Anyone have any experience lately? Most posts seem to be older and just want to follow up to see if anything has changed.

Also...here is a pic as of yesterday of the frame/engine/transmission progress. Comment away if you see anything! Three things on my mind bothering me...
1. Head gasket...I put it on dry (Lucas from BPN) and hoping my liners were close enough! Going to do compression test and pray. If it leaks...well...new gasket and some well seal and check liner protrusion 10x
2. Need torque value for front crank/fan extension bolt (looked on lists but not sure what they are calling that)
3. They straightened my frame....supposedly. The strut bar that goes across won't fit so I'm not too happy about that. I'm thinking they didn't bolt that in when doing the straightening. Probably would've been smart to do so.

20170517_191429.jpg
 

TR3driver

Great Pumpkin - R.I.P
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It's normal for the frame to flex a bit with the weight of the car. Try jacking it up under the front cross member and you should be able to get the crossbrace into place.

My copy of the manual notes 140 ftlb for that bolt. I forget where I got that.
 
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ghawk16

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It's normal for the frame to flex a bit with the weight of the car. Try jacking it up under the front cross member and you should be able to get the ceossbrace into place.

I don't think there is a factory spec for that bolt. But 120 ftlb should do fine.

Good idea! Thanks! I love this place! So many knowledgeable people! Learn something new every day.
 

TR3driver

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Sorry I was a bit slow with the update.
I've got a note that says 140 ftlb for that bolt.
 
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ghawk16

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Sorry I was a bit slow with the update.
I've got a note that says 140 ftlb for that bolt.

140ftlb it is! Thanks again. Will torque that and try and get that cross tube to fit tonight.
 

Got_All_4

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Gary I would make sure that if you get both the pump and pulley together that you get a match set with the key. I just went through that with my TR3. Purchased a up-rated pump and thought my original key would fit. Had to file it down to fit and 400 miles later the pulley starts wobbling on the shaft and wares out the pulley. So I bought the new pulley and a new key and the key didn't fit into the shaft. Others had the shaft machined but I took my Dremmal tool and very very carefully shaped the slot in the pump shaft to fit. These are Moss parts that I get from a local supplier. I have a recent post called Problem With Water Pump. You can read there what others have written too.
 
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ghawk16

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I did..went with BPN uprated pump. The key fit nice and tight in my original pulley. However when I put the nut on it hit the housing. So what I had to do was make a custom washer to put on the shaft edge and between the pulley. Then I put the nut on with loctite as the locknut barely grabbed the nylon part. I'm hoping that works Guess we shall see.

Gary,

Did you ever pick a water pump?
 
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ghawk16

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My pump from BPN came with a key that fit fairly snug. I put some loctite to hold it better, but it fit nice and tight in the slot of my pulley so I was happy with that. See my above post about the spacing. That would be my big concern. The belt still looks aligned so I'm hoping it will hold. But it will be something I keep an eye on, among-st other things.

Gary I would make sure that if you get both the pump and pulley together that you get a match set with the key. I just went through that with my TR3. Purchased a up-rated pump and thought my original key would fit. Had to file it down to fit and 400 miles later the pulley starts wobbling on the shaft and wares out the pulley. So I bought the new pulley and a new key and the key didn't fit into the shaft. Others had the shaft machined but I took my Dremmal tool and very very carefully shaped the slot in the pump shaft to fit. These are Moss parts that I get from a local supplier. I have a recent post called Problem With Water Pump. You can read there what others have written too.
 

CJD

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Just for others who follow...
I went with the TRF pump. It came in a Lucas box, and the pump housing has Lucas cast into it.

As I found on previous posts, the pump would not go on in the correct orientation. I had to drill the 2 holes that go over the studs about .030" larger so it would fit in the correct orientation. Not a big deal, but still a bit annoying.

The key was loose in the shaft, so that every time I attempted to slide the pulley over it, it would slide out and get trapped between the bearing and pulley. This would be easy to miss if you were not watching for it! I finally used loctite to glue the key, and used a heat gun to dry it thouroughly so it would stay in place. I was then able to slide the pulley on without displacing the key. I used a tiny drill bit to push in and ensure the key stayed in the slot.

The TRF pump also uses a larger nut to hold the pulley on.

There is no grease fitting, which I hear is common to all new water pumps. I drilled the boss and threaded it for a fitting. Of course it is just for looks, as it does not go through to the bearings.
 

charleyf

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Regarding water pumps, here is my latest. I ordered a 5 vane pump about three years back. It has been sitting on the shelf since then. Last week I pulled it off to make it ready to use. What I found is that it is a TRUEFLOW pump, the mainshaft is the normal 5/8 " but the last 3/32" directly above the top bearing is about 11/16". This stops the pulley from seating all of the way down onto the top of the bearing. This then moves the pulley that 3/32" forward from the normal position. Looking at it compared to a normal set up it looks like the pulley is now 3/32" forward of the normal alignment for the belt. This may not be much but it appears to alter the belt alignment. Second the hole cut for the key in the pump shaft is cut to deep and the key sits low on the shaft. This one measured .67" while a normal key plus shaft measured .69 to.70. My take on this is that the key is not going to function properly and the pulley will begin to wobble. I had a pump do this not to long ago. At the time I thought that I had over tightened the belt but in looking at this set up I am thinking that it might have been more due to a faulty key.

As more people out there continue to make aftermarket products there are small items that they just do not pay enough attention to that will make the product fail. I would add that this pump has a really big nut on the front and it looks like a very heavy duty set up. But with the faulty key it looks very prone to early failure.
Charley
 

Geo Hahn

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...when I put the nut on it hit the housing. So what I had to do was make a custom washer to put on the shaft edge and between the pulley...

Used to be pretty common to have to use a grinder on the repro pumps sold to take away a bit of the casting that fouled on the rear edge of the pulley. I mention this in case the arrangement with the washer should prove unsatisfactory.

...There is no grease fitting, which I hear is common to all new water pumps. I drilled the boss and threaded it for a fitting. Of course it is just for looks, as it does not go through to the bearings.

Nice - I just ground the threaded portion off of an old Zerk and JBWelded it on that flat boss. Some future owner (FO?) will surely curse us when he tries to grease that fitting.
 

charleyf

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I did..went with BPN uprated pump. The key fit nice and tight in my original pulley. However when I put the nut on it hit the housing. So what I had to do was make a custom washer to put on the shaft edge and between the pulley. Then I put the nut on with loctite as the locknut barely grabbed the nylon part. I'm hoping that works Guess we shall see.
Gary,
Did you check the alignment of the pulley with the other two pulleys? By moving the pulley up on the shaft with the washer you also change the pulley alignment.
Charley
 
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ghawk16

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As I found on previous posts, the pump would not go on in the correct orientation. I had to drill the 2 holes that go over the studs about .030" larger so it would fit in the correct orientation. Not a big deal, but still a bit annoying.

The key was loose in the shaft, so that every time I attempted to slide the pulley over it, it would slide out and get trapped between the bearing and pulley. This would be easy to miss if you were not watching for it! I finally used loctite to glue the key, and used a heat gun to dry it thouroughly so it would stay in place. I was then able to slide the pulley on without displacing the key. I used a tiny drill bit to push in and ensure the key stayed in the slot.

The TRF pump also uses a larger nut to hold the pulley on.

There is no grease fitting, which I hear is common to all new water pumps. I drilled the boss and threaded it for a fitting. Of course it is just for looks, as it does not go through to the bearings.

John,

OK...now you have me thinking...mine wouldn't go on a certain way either. I figured it was this way so you could only mount it one way. Can you confirm for me which position the hole is supposed to go and what position the "supposed" grease fitting is supposed to go? Mine was also in a Lucas box and I actually started drilling out the holes but then thought "hmmmm, maybe they did this on purpose so it is mounted a certain way."

My key also did the same thing and I caught it and did the same thing you did with loctite. Mine also has the larger nut.
 
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ghawk16

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Used to be pretty common to have to use a grinder on the repro pumps sold to take away a bit of the casting that fouled on the rear edge of the pulley. I mention this in case the arrangement with the washer should prove unsatisfactory.

Hmmmmm, I may have to double check the alignment of my pulleys but they look pretty darn close. If I have to pull it back off and start over by grinding a tad off the casting then so be it. I'm not feeling confident with my washer fix the more I revisit this thread.
 

martx-5

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... Can you confirm for me which position the hole is supposed to go and what position the "supposed" grease fitting is supposed to go? ...

In another life, I used to rebuild water pumps. The hole in the casting is to let any water run out, as occasionally the seals might drip a bit. This is to prevent the water from running through the bearings. The weep hole as it's often called, should always be pointing down. Modern seals are better in this regard than those of the '70s and earlier. I remember that the Chrysler slant six pumps had a "catch trough" below the weep hole so it wouldn't drip onto the belt and cause it to slip. :wink-new:
 
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ghawk16

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In another life, I used to rebuild water pumps. The hole in the casting is to let any water run out, as occasionally the seals might drip a bit. This is to prevent the water from running through the bearings. The weep hole as it's often called, should always be pointing down. Modern seals are better in this regard than those of the '70s and earlier. I remember that the Chrysler slant six pumps had a "catch trough" below the weep hole so it wouldn't drip onto the belt and cause it to slip. :wink-new:

That's what I thought. But as John mentioned above I would then have to drill the holes out a tad bigger and the flat service where the grease nipple would have been would be around 2 o' clock position if looking at the front of the engine. Guess I'll be taking it back off, enlarging the holes, shaving a bit off the casting and putting the pulley back on without the spacer/washer. Gives me something to do this weekend on the car.
 

TR3driver

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FWIW, I believe that Triumph deliberately put the holes a bit off, so the pump would only fit one way. Original pumps (and the repro I got from TRF a few years back) do have the weep hole at the bottom when fitted the only way they fit.

The Lucas pump is evidently just made wrong (hole in the wrong place).

BTW, can anyone confirm or deny that the Ferguson tractor with the Standard motor (TEA20) uses the same water pump pulley as the TR2-4? I bought one the other day, and the belt sheave looks narrower to me than the TR version. But I haven't gotten around to pulling it off and ordering a replacement pump yet. It's also possible the DPO changed the WP (and crank) pulley, as it has a very hokey alternator conversion at the moment (which I plan to pull off eventually but not sure what to replace it with).
 
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ghawk16

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Well...that didn't go the way I thought it would. ARRRRGHHHHH! D*** you BPNW uprated pump. Sooooo, got the pump off. Ground off part of the casting and the pulley went on perfect. Yay! Next was to open the holes slightly so the pump could be orientated correctly. Well, did that but then the bolt hole wouldn't line up correctly so the bolt wouldn't catch and I didn't want to force it. Odd, yes. Sooooo, enlarged that hole as well. HOWEVER, in the process of pulling the water pump off and putting it on for multiple test fitments I somehow stripped the threads on the stud at 12pm. I think it was from the housing binding on the bolt as I didn't put any nut on it to test fit. So NOW I need a new water pump housing. I see some on FleaBay, but figure I'll ask here first. Anyone have a spare pump housing laying around I could buy? Still looking for the fuel line that comes out of the tank as well. I for some reason lost that ONE line out of everything on the car. Not a good Triumph day. :(
 
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