Ken Burns - The War

[NutmegCT]

Imagine an educational system where responsible adults actually decide what "curriculum" would be most beneficial for their children. Where parents actually take part in planning and guiding their children's education, instead of just paying for the credit card, the cell phone, and giving them the car keys.

Now ask your neighbors what their children are learning in school. If you're lucky, at least some folks have some idea what their children are studying. I'm afraid the majority don't have a clue - and don't care. Having fun seems to take precedence.

Do your local schools teach students to question, analyze and critique? Do they learn to develop a thought, and write a cogent essay?

Or do they mostly learn how to memorize, socialize, and pass multiple choice tests? If your schools say "test scores are going up" - can they also demonstrate that students are becoming prepared to live a responsible, rational, accepting life, knowing where we've come from, and where we're headed?

In some countries, people get degrees by proving to faculty they understand a subject by writing essays about it. In others, people get degrees for sitting in class long enough without causing problems.

What a future we'd have ... if only.

Tom

 

[aeronca65t]

Do your local schools teach students to question, analyze and critique? Do they learn to develop a thought, and write a cogent essay?

They do if they're engineering majors at the County College of Morris in Randolph, New Jersey.
And I'd say that for most other ABET-accredited engineering programs as well.

But for years, many parents have tended to push their kids away for engineering and the sciences. Happily, there is a shift in that these days and the idea of academic rigor is returning.

I see nothing wrong with social growth and having fun at college as long as it is coupled with real intellectual challenge. But I do not understand the notion that parents send their children to college "just to get a degree".

And I agree with Mark (above). There has always been a portion of the population that is ignorant. But nowadays, with media and communication, it is more visible to us.

I think the Ken Burns programs on PBS are excellent.

By the way, if any of you think "kids today" are all slackers, attend (or better yet, participate) in your local FIRST Robotics Team meetings. *That* will change your mind in a hurry! I've been doing it for 12 years and it is a real eye-opener. I can barely afford the time to be involved in FIRST and yet it is one of the most positive experiences I have.
Motto of FIRST Robotics: “Gracious Professionalism”
If you have a question about your local FIRST team, PM me and I'll find it for you.
(or go to: https://www.usfirst.org )

 

[PATR8]

As we speak of public education, I had a chance to preview some of the text the local school was considering for world cultures. I had two paragraphs on the civil war, two paragraphs on WWI, it had a page on WWII, a very small paragraph on Korea, it discussed the Vietnam war for three sentences but the protest of the war were covered for most of a page. Now the important parts of history had their own chapters, you know the real important ones, the chapter on feminism, the chapter or sex, drugs, and rock and roll (Sub-chapter on MTV), and how could we forget the entire chapter on the Clinton years. Not bashing clinton but I think somehow in history his presidency is not 4x more important that WWII.

Thankfully this book was not choosen

 

[TR6oldtimer]

I had an opportunity to view a portion of Ken Burns' WWII documentary last night. Seems he truly prefers to focus on the bad, the failures, poor leadership, and the death toll and waste.

Take the battle of Leyte gulf mentioned in this episode. It was a major and the last significant naval battle of the war that in effect made the Japanese Navy useless by allowing the invasion of the Philippines to succeed, thereby cutting off supply lines the the Japanese fleet.

But we almost lost this battle when a vastly superior Japanese fleet of battleships and heavy cruisers, lead by the Yamato, was turned back by three groups of light escort carriers and destroyers in the Battle off Samar. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_off_Samar

Of particular note, was LT CMDR E. E. Evans commanding the USS Johnston, who early on took the initiative and turned his ship into the vastly superior cruiser group, attacking with torpedoes and five inch gun fire disabled a cruiser. Other destroyers followed suit. The Johnston took hits, lost an engine room, but continued to fight until forced to abandon ship.

LT CMDR Evans survived the battle but was lost at sea. For his heroism, he was posthumously awarded the Medal of Honor. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernest_E._Evans

I fear that our children, who seem to get their education from TV, will never know of the heroism of men like Evans, but instead remember the scenes and stories of Marines looting Japanese solder's bodies. Thank you PBS.

 

[vagt6]

Burns' film clearly is not about depicting heroism. This was not Burns' purpose in making the film. "The War" was carefully crafted to depict the horrible impact of the war upon society in general, particularly working class Americans. In this regard he did an excellent job.

And as far as influencing young people, each episode of "The War" carries a warning about the violence and graphic material. It's clearly not for kids below a certain age. Teenagers, maybe, but not children.

The kids can learn about war heroes in another film, but not this one. If we're lucky, Burns will do a film about that someday, too.

 

[DrEntropy]

"This film is dedicated to those who fought and won that necessary war."


...just in case anyone missed that ~little~ bit.

 

[PATR8]

I saw the last episode tonight I beleive, I really thought it was a worth while series, worthy of me ignoring my 8 for a few hours each night. Very realistic, no sterilizing it, no making it politically correct. The concentration camp scenes were tough

 

[DougF]

While in a customer's shop today, one of the young guys asked if Pearl Harbor was our entry into WW1 or WW2. The gentleman I was with(a Veteran) and I were taken back. He explained that this was one of the most important times in our Nations history and I explained that it took us into the Pacific Theater of WW2. I asked him if he knew who we were fighting. I don't need to give his answer.
We need to know our country's history. The schools have failed in providing it. Hopefully, some kids put their Play Stations down for 7 nights to watch. A few nights of The Civil War wouldn't hurt.
But I agree. We are too soft. Most of the ugly scenes were in black and white. Our Veterans didn't have that privilage.
War is not pretty and should not be made to look otherwise.
If people were repulsed, then the film was effective to that extent. But they also needed to listen to why it was the war of necessity.

 

[bugimike]

The sentiments expressed above were what so impressed me in the interviews I saw with Ken Burns. How he helped open up those brave, old, veterans into expressing what they had felt for many years but had internalized until now. As he stated, the views of the participants will be word-of-mouth history within ten years as they will ALL be gone by then, and their insights would have been all but forgotten without his documentary!

 

[TR6oldtimer]

I hope I am dead before a simular effort is done for my war, the Vietnam conflict.

 

[DrEntropy]

I've thought that too, Ray. But I *think* it would be viewable in short stints... DVD and a pause button... maybe. If Burns did it.

I've stood up and left theatre seats during most depictions of it, mostly because of the Hollywood BS factor. Once for a scene (don't recall the title, was coerced into it; got well lubed up ahead of time) in some tall reed grass with AK's goin' off and surround sound of rounds flyin' all over the place. Completely unnerving, that. Didn't need the "thrill" of it at all.

 

[Bayless]

Couldn't help but get emotionally involved with the film. Some parts were pretty hard to take. Seeing some of the veterans choke up a bit even after 60 years makes you understand at least a little bit of how horrible it really was, war in general. My father was in the Pacific theater for a couple of years or so. Being in the artillery, he was probably spared much of the up close blood an guts. But he still never talked much about it. There are very few of those guys still around.

 

[aerog]

While in a customer's shop today, one of the young guys asked if Pearl Harbor was our entry into WW1 or WW2.

I've heard that more than once. Dec 7th comes around and someone will say something about "Pearl Harbor Day" and people haven't a clue...I'm not talking 16-20 year olds either, I'm talking 35-40 year-olds. They all seem to know all the behind-the-scenes details of American Idol though. /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/rolleyes.gif

Personally I don't think it's that important that students learn things like the capitol of every state. I don't think it's important that they know the names of all the presidents by heart... but I do think they should have a basic grasp of their own nations history!

Anyway... I graduated High School in 1986. I can't remember much being taught about WW2 and very little about WW1.
To make things even more convoluted we never really had a "history" class - they called it something else and it only brushed on the highlights of American History. In the 6th grade the class consisted of months of scouring over Amnesty International publications and discussing the problems of certain African countries, and a month of talking about Thailand. At some point we talked about the American Revolution...and of all things Watergate!

The Civil War "chapter" lasted all of a week and the whole thing was basically "it was over freeing the slaves, now close your books". Amazing considering we were 20 minutes from Washington DC, 10 minutes from Manassas, and the school itself was near a lot of history (we even had existing Civil War trenchworks within site of my elementary school - which are sadly gone - but we never even talked about them).

I'd read old books, saw TV shows and movies about kids having to memorize the "Gettysburg Address" yet it was never even mentioned in my school.

I watched all of "The War" on PBS. I saw some things that seemed a little biased, but overall I think it was pretty balanced. They approached the subject by looking at it from the perspective of the people from a few towns and cities and not purely as a lesson about specific events. I thought it was good, and I'll watch it again.

 

[Baz]

Do your local schools teach students to question, analyze and critique?

Not in our district, and especially not in History. I recently finished a paper entitled The Disneyfication of History which included many examples of board approved history textbooks that have been altered, edited or in some ways (and even more damaging) had events or people OMITTED to provide the student with nothing more, than a glammed up revisionist version of 'Disneyfied' fact that offends no-one and accomplishes nothing except ignorance.
Drives me nuts.
In most cases, students and parents don't know if it's correct or not, they just assume that it is because it's a textbook.
Anyway, Tolstoy was right; "History would be an excellent thing, if only it were true".

 

[Steve]

Do your local schools teach students to question, analyze and critique?

Not in our district, and especially not in History. I recently finished a paper entitled The Disneyfication of History which included many examples of board approved history textbooks that have been altered, edited or in some ways (and even more damaging) had events or people OMITTED to provide the student with nothing more, than a glammed up revisionist version of 'Disneyfied' fact that offends no-one and accomplishes nothing except ignorance.
Drives me nuts.
In most cases, students and parents don't know if it's correct or not, they just assume that it is because it's a textbook.
Anyway, Tolstoy was right; "History would be an excellent thing, if only it were true".

Now THAT is scary!

 

[bugimike]

I have always felt that a very positive part of being a naturalized citizen is that to become one, one has to (or at least HAD to!) take a pretty comprehensive test on US history to make the grade (do they still take the tests in English?)! I wound up having to know more than many native-born citizens!!

 

[aerog]

Do your local schools teach students to question, analyze and critique?

Mine didn't. I remember around the 5th grade having a geography "chapter" on the states. We had to learn them all, a little at a time. Every couple of days we had a quiz where we had to fill in a blank that pointed to each state, writing in the name of that state. I always missed one: Washington DC! I always protested when I got it wrong because that isn't a state!! The teacher honestly always argued that it was "the same thing" and marked me down for it.

I guess I was a smart a$$ kid, I dunno.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:]Or do they mostly learn how to memorize, socialize, and pass multiple choice tests? [/QUOTE]

In college I majored in both commercial aviation and photography. There were people graduating with a variety of photography degrees that didn't even know how to work a light meter or the basics behind using a camera. They produced enough photo work (either through luck or trial and error) and passed enough tests to make the grade. They got a piece of paper that implied they had some kind of expert knowledge in the field, but they were seriously lost.

In the aviation field I had friends that were already commercial pilots but needed a degree to dress up their resume'. One of them (a friend of mine) was actually instructing students we were in class with! A couple of months after we got out of school he was flying for Continental. Obviously It was worth it, but that degree meant absolutely nothing except a nice looking resume' - he wasn't a better or safer pilot for sitting and staring at the walls during class all that time.

I've had to remind myself of those experiences when I have to hire people. In most cases I'll take someone who can demonstrate knowledge over someone that has a glowing resume' any day.

 

[DrEntropy]

I'll take someone who can demonstrate knowledge over someone that has a glowing resume' any day.

/bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/thumbsup.gif

 

[aerog]

I'll take someone who can demonstrate knowledge over someone that has a glowing resume' any day.

/bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/thumbsup.gif

OH yeah, and one more thing too! I hired a girl that was a senior in high school to work in our lab part-time years ago. Really bright, nice girl. When her first paycheck came in she was furious. She wanted to know why we took money out of her check! Huh? "Yeah look, I make $x right? You deducted this here, and this, and this, and I only have $y left over!"

We had a long chat about taxes and stuff. Funny to see reality hit someone square in the forehead /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

 

[DougF]

I took a Red Cross Water Safety Instructor class in college. Having taken the class before, the instructor from the university used me as the victim while several of my classmates were being tested.
The weakest swimmer in the class was tested on the easiest rescue manuever in the book and nearly drown himself and me with him.
He passed.
Now here is a man who could someday be put into a life/death situation in a job that he got because of this certification.
It just doesn't make sense.
Failure just isn't allowed in the education system anymore.