TR6 Just another whining TR6 fuel pump again?

[jobster]

4 weeks ago my 1973 all of a sudden died whilst driving. Had it once before, normal starting driving and after a few mls blop blop cough quiet. Except for the extremely loud noises coming form the trunk, like a cat was being killed. Starting, nothing. Waited for 10 min and no problems at all. 2 weeks ago same. Had my Bosch pump replaced for a new one, new Fuel Filter. Today, after having driven 80km's same happened again. Waited 10 min, started again, lumpy ride this time, lots of noises from the pump area. Managed to get home, had dinner, went out, started and running like a charm, no funny sounds or noise whatsoever, drove another 20 mls (not sparing the car) nothing, no problems, just a very smooth ride. Pump has a good gravity feed. Could it be the PRV or just crud in the tank blocking the outflow? Running unleaded fuel, no changes made due to that (to my knowledge), tank most likely the original one, not tampered with or relined. The sound (if it sounds and the car dies on me) is really from the pump/hoses/PRV area. Any clues anyone?

 

[DNK]

How much crud is in that tank that ran thru the new pump?

 

[jobster]

well, did change the fuel filter, before I changed the pump. At that time I could not see anything special. And the whining (often mentioned here by others) was there before the filter and pump change. The only difference is that the car just, well just dies. Which can be very uncomfortable when driving the left lane at 100mph (when it happened the 1st time, after that twice at different speeds)

 

[Tinster]

Jobster-

I think I'm on my 5th fuel pump with about 1300 miles
of driving. All the failures have been mechanical pumps.

It sounds like tank bottom crud to me. Get a mini-mag
flashlight and shine it down into your fuel tank. Do this
in a darken garage if possible.

You should be able to see the tank bottom and notice any
large amounts of crud. If you see crud- drain the tank,
pull it out and very well clean the inside.

You can pull the tank, clean it and put it back inside in
about one day of labor. It took me two days but that is
because I know very little of auto mechanic things.

good luck gouda guy!!

d /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

 

[jobster]

Jobster-

I think I'm on my 5th fuel pump with about 1300 miles
of driving. All the failures have been mechanical pumps.

It sounds like tank bottom crud to me. Get a mini-mag
flashlight and shine it down into your fuel tank. Do this
in a darken garage if possible.

You should be able to see the tank bottom and notice any
large amounts of crud. If you see crud- drain the tank,
pull it out and very well clean the inside.

You can pull the tank, clean it and put it back inside in
about one day of labor. It took me two days but that is
because I know very little of auto mechanic things.

good luck gouda guy!!

d /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

Actually never thought about using a flashlight to see what's in the tank (no I am not THAT stupid to use a lighter /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/nonod.gif). At least it's a quick check to do. And Dale, don't feel bad, I may perhaps know just a tiny little bit more of car mechanic things, but you are definitely more organized. I usually end up with either too many or to few parts so that's costing me time (if not money..).

 

[heliguy]

Jobster,


From what you describe it sounds like vapour locking to me. Next time you are out, feel how hot the pump is after running for a few miles, and compare that to when it quits again.................Bosch are not as bad as Lucas for this, but you never know..................

 

[Earl]

I had the same type of problem that drove me nuts until I found a link in the gas line that was pinched. A rubber gas line had come lose under the trunk and somehow developed a kink that was restricting but not stopping the gas flow. The car would run great until the gas line was emptied then it would quit like it ran out of gas (which it had). Then after sitting for a couple of minutes, which allowed the line to fill up with gas again, it would start up and run fine until out of gas again.
Good Luck.

 

[TR674]

Job
sounds exactly like vapour lock. What is puzzling me is this is happening in cold weather???? Most likely fuel starvation to the pump, or a faulty pump?
Regards
Craig

 

[RonMacPherson]

From your description you have the PI system. Is the pump the updated version? Have you tried reaching back and popping open your gas cap to see if that changes anything? Possible the system is pressuring up and starving the pump. There is supposed to be a miniscule air vent in the cap open to atmosphere.

Bosch should have parts warranty on the pump if you installed new one. I know here in the states replacement part is 1 year 12K miles.

If opening the cap changes nothing my next suspect would be power and ground to the pump(does this use a relay, if so, might check a new relay) then go for fuel tank contamination. Possible the fuel pickup is intermittently clogging, which would starve the pump.

 

[jobster]

usefull thoughts. Will start working on it (not this weekend due, I'm skiing.
Pump is not warm at all when this phenomena happens, checked that. The miniscule vent opening in the cap should be in the rubber seal I guess? Car did not want to start though when I opened the cap and tried it, or is that normal after the vacuum and the lines need to fill up again. I will shine a light in the fuel tank tonight though because I really think it may be crud. Pump is definitly a good one.
Given the reactions thusfar, a faulty PRV is very unlikely then?

 

[TR674]

Job
I don't have much experience with the pressure relief valve, I've never had problems there so I can't comment. If all the upstream plumbing is OK and not blocked, causing supply restrictions, then check the prv.
If the pump is not hot then it definitely won't be vapour lock.
If you want, send me a PM with your email address and I can send you a fairly in depth article of PI maintenance I downloaded of the internet. It may give you some clues as to what to look for.
Regards
Craig

 

[jobster]

Job
I don't have much experience with the pressure relief valve, I've never had problems there so I can't comment. If all the upstream plumbing is OK and not blocked, causing supply restrictions, then check the prv.
If the pump is not hot then it definitely won't be vapour lock.
If you want, send me a PM with your email address and I can send you a fairly in depth article of PI maintenance I downloaded of the internet. It may give you some clues as to what to look for.
Regards
Craig

PM send, thanks

 

[piman]

Hello Job,

is the fuel filter a large (original PI filter) and still before the pump? I understand that the Bosch pump does not pull fuel as well as the Lucas pump, but you say that there is good gravity to the pump? What about fuel level in the tank?

If there is foreign bodies in the tank it should be obvious in the fuel filter bowl if you have an original one fitted? I don't think a pressure relief valve problem would cause the pump to be noisy. All in all it seems like a fuel feed to the pump problem?

Alec,

Still on a Lucas pump.

 

[jobster]

Alec-Still-on-a-Lucas-pump, (hope it's the car, not you ),

thanks. The pump is now well fitted below the tank whereas it used to be on the wheel arch (not the best of places for this pump). The more replies I see, the more I truly believe it may be the tank that's coming apart on the inside, or at least lots of crud clogging the outlet. It's tank => original fuel filter bowl with new (PI, bosch capable)fuel filter => pump. I'll take of the filter again to check and have look in he tank as well as suggested by Dale. Quite annoying since the car starts and runs like a charm, and just simply quits without a warning. Had it happening after a long drive but also twice after taking it out of the garage and driving for maybe 1,5 mls. If the filter, lines and tank and fuel cap look fine, I'll move on to adjust the electrics, and if nothing changes have a look at the return lines. Will keep you posted, in the mean time I'm off skiing so won't be able to do anything before next weekend. If some does have THE solution, post it!

 

[sammy]

Would there be any merit in putting a fuel filter between the tank and the pump?

 

[jobster]

uhm, not sure what you mean because it is between the pump and the tank...

 

[Tinster]

Jobster !!

In case you decide to take the tank out and clean it up;
here's a bunch of photos from my DPO Pedro trials and
tribulations.

I had five filters in the new system but the two tiny
filters for each carb starved the engine and I removed
them. I now have three in-line filters and all new fuel
lines. I carry two spare mechanical fuel pumps since they
are prone to sudden failure.

I am using the mechanical fuel pump but I have an electric
pump hard wired for emergency use when the mechanical pump
fails.


https://rides.webshots.com/album/559938774SZbUCt?start=0

I hope the photos help you.

dale

 

[jobster]

Thanks Dale, and wow, 5 replacement pumps! Than I have 4 to go. Never went to Bosch pumps? In any case, I know what to expect when taking it out (which may be usefull anyway when looking at the collected crud in your pics).

 

[piman]

Hello Jobster,

if it is foreign material blocking the tank outlet, I would have thought there would be some evidence in the filter bowl?

Unless you have access to a pressure gauge to monitor fuel pressure to determine that it is definitely a fuel fault, (a noisy pump certainly does seem to indicate just that)you need an assistant to crank the engine so you can feel the injector lines. If it is fuel problem there will be no pressure pulses.

Alec

 

[2wrench]

Doesn't hearing whining just drive you nuts?