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Tips
Tips

I've lost 4th gear!

The interior bearing surfaces of the layshaft are important too. Those needle bearings can trash the layshaft if they get too worn or the box has sat around enough to allow things to internally rust.
 
Back home. Do I need to remove the nut, then the snap ring, get bearing off from the front and pull the first motion shaft out the back, still with the syncho cone on the shaft? Haynes seems to indicate that cone should be off already and the whole works coming out the front. Maybe when I tapped the first motion shaft forward with a "metal rod" it was seated in the wrong place? What is one supposed to tab against? Is the synchro cone supposed to be left behind inside the box?
Layshaft wear can be seen in last picture, this is no doubt where the needle bearing failed. Pictures
 
Once you take the large snap ring off of the bearing tap the front of the input shaft to force the bearing and input shaft into the case. Use a block of hardwood or a brass drift between the hammer and the input shaft. No need to take the nut off until the input shaft is out of the transmission.
 
Thanks, that got it. Wondering why the manual says to do it a way that won't work? Anyway, it's all stripped out (reverse idle gear thing won't come out but close enough, looks that that screw head has seen at least one other bozo reef on it). Needle bearings in the layshaft look great (despite wear on the shaft itself-didn't someone say a few posts back that was sure to be where the needle bearing failed?---it was me and I was wrong apparently. There is no evidence of a needle bearing between the input and the main shaft, no evidence remaining at least. There's junk in sludge bits as pictured. How the heck could those pieces find their way out of there? Do you think the lack of oil caused this bearing to fail and the bits got stuck on the 3/4 fork causing it wear down to nothing until it could no longer hold the gears together? hmmmmm

Any input on what's worth saving here?

Thanks again, I learned a lot so far.
Pictures again
 
Once the needle bearing left everything went out of alignment. The side load between the counter shaft and the main shaft will push the shafts apart. The needles must have turned perpendicular to the shaft to leave. The bore of the input shaft and the nose on the main shaft will have to be checked for wear and damage. The bores on the lay gear will have to be checked as well. Usually the wear occurs primarily to the counter shaft where the needles ride. The lay gear fits around the counter shaft.
 
So, it could be with a new brass fork for 3/4, needle bearing, front main bearing, general cleaning and careful reassembly, I could have a "decent" gearbox again? Unless the there's enough wear on the various teeth (as pictured) that it would require more bits and then not be worth it anymore? I'm surprised that the only symptom after this catastrophic failure was the inability to engage 4th. All other gears and shifting remained just fine. I drove it around like this for a little while, probably not more than 80 miles. If you think a 5th gear is needed, try living without 4th for a bit! Wonder how hard it is to get that 3/4th fork? Probably just as easy and same $$ to get another whole used box! Thanks again for the input! I'm learning lots and lots.

Interesting, 3/4 fork unavailable from Moss or VB.....

Oh, BTW I doubt it was a mistake on reassembly that caused it as the box hadn't been opened in 20 years, if even then. I would not be surprised that this is the original box and it was untouched until I tore into it. I think it was drained for engine pull, then never refilled, that it was run with no oil ever since (since 1987). 1995 miles on it since then, 95% short trips. Is it conceivable for an oiless box to hold up that long? Long time, precious little usage though.
BTW I've managed 5,000 miles in 2 summers, more than the previous 21 years.....as it was built for IMHO. Garage queens suck.
 
Check all your part numbers. Based upon the 22A460 number I can see on the 1st/2nd slide gear, I would speculate that this is an aftermarket BMC/Unipart replacement gearbox. The gear teeth are going to be Type 'A' teeth and not nterchangeable with anything standard in Spridgets. The circlips in the laygear also give away the Type 'A' gear teeth profile. It is basically an early Morris type box. Is the cluster/lay gear a 22G76 or 22G83? I may have some replacements in the trany parts cabinet. The 22G95 3/4 slider is something that is Spridget and the 22G409 from later Spridgets will interchange. The chipped teeth are more ugly than disasterous. The real key is how worn are the internal teeth on the 1/2 slider which engages 2nd. Badly worn teeth here make the gear unusable. Replacements are NLA unless someone has an NOS laying around. Since you drove the car home, did it pop out of 2nd? If not, then you may be able to re-use the gear.

See my earlier posts. Go the used parts route for as much as you can. Staying less than $100 even with good used stuff is going to be a challenge. Good used layshafts are hard to find, so you may end up new for it and maybe the input bearing too. I can help with fairly priced used parts if you desire.

You are doing great! Half the battle is getting it apart and figuring out what is good and what needs replacing. The rest is just perserverance and patience with a few good tips from the folks on the BCF.

Best regards and a Merry Christmas!
Mike
 
Really? replacement box? That negates my amendment to the previous post then. Any other way to ID the box and parts? Stampings and such? I'll gather some numbers and report. Man I love this forum! You guys are awesome, Merry Christmas to all and here's hoping Santa stuffs your stockings with all the Spridget bits you could hope for.
 
Once you have your shopping list you might contact Paul of MorriService to see if he has any used and serviceable items.
 
I used to rebuild about a dozen or so Spridget gearboxes a year for a major NC foreign car salvage yard in the 80's. I would get 2-4 a month and make whatever I could out of the communal parts. I've seen just about any kind of ribcase gearbox imaginable. Lots of times the Morris/Silverseal/Goldseal boxes would end up in Spridgets as replacements. A '63 is 46 years old. It might be the original box. I wouldn't put it past BMC to have used whatever was available on the assembly line. One of the Spridgets I have is a mix of 67 and 68 parts and is a testament to that behavior. But that is an aside. There are gearbox stampings on the driver's side of the main case and on the backside of the linkage boss. These will help narrow the date of manufacture down. Might even reveal whether it is a replacement or not. What could have happened is that the box you have is a transition box that was used briefly until the later "200" numbered gearboxes came out. Most of the parts in the gearbox have "200" series part numbers. The later Spridgets had mostly "1100" series numbers for the parts. The main exception to this is the 3/4 slider. It's numbering seemed to follow Mini parts numbering since these two models shared a lot of the same gear box parts.

Get things apart, figure out what is good and what needs replacing. Note the part numbers marked on any pieces and then post what you need and contact the leads that the BCF contributors have identified.

Best Regards,
Mike
 
Here's a slew of numbers if it tells anyone anything.
Same pics, updated, see last 7 or so.

Here's a list for posterity after pictures eventually disappear;
driver's side case 7903 (M on top)
case rear by linkage mount 13 63 0
remote housing 22A4BC
YAP5
rear extension 22A478
VAR10

1/2 fork 22A 469 SR 2

3/4 fork S R 2

3/4 shift rod 22A472B
 
Mike said:
I've seen just about any kind of ribcase gearbox imaginable. Lots of times the Morris/Silverseal/Goldseal boxes would end up in Spridgets as replacements. A '63 is 46 years old. It might be the original box. I wouldn't put it past BMC to have used whatever was available on the assembly line.

Amen. And due to the age, it may even have been a dealer "warranty" install after an "original" went ugly. Just no tellin'.

If ya don't already have 'em, this would be a great time to acquire some micrometers and pin gauges! More TOOLS! :wink:
 
This has been a really informative thread. Between this one and Bill's it certainly has been an education!

Thanks for posting/documenting this guys.
 
I just heard back from the PO, he never pulled the engine and never touched the carpet so this gearbox was run empty for 20 years until I got it. Wow.
 
I stowed and labled everything. I'll let it set for now. Moving on to a dash refurb.
 
Looking at all the pictures a couple of times, it would appear that you have a transition box. The parts numbers (assuming you have a 22G76 laygear)indicate that this gearbox is a very early ribcase box made up of gears that were also shared with the early ribcase Morris Minor gearbox. A lot of the Morris gearboxes of this period still used the brass bushing under 2nd and 3rd gears. Some of the pieces (laygear, 2 & 3 gears) were shared with the early Mini's as well. The date code (1-3-63) would indicate that this is a March 1963 assembled box. The Morris gearboxes used a 22G171 input with a 22G83 laygear. These are indeed Type 'A' profile gear teeth. Heck, some of these gears could have even been used in some of the last slick cases too.

I also think that you could re-assemble the gearbox with just a few select used replacement parts and stay in the $100 range. Can't see the 4th gear side of the 3/4 slide, but if it is like the 3rd gear side, then you could re-use with a good clean up (remove brass) of the outer ring.

The layshaft has some wear, but you can get by with what is there for awhile. If you were driving the car 15K a year, I would recommend replacing it, along with some other pieces, but not for a few K a year. If and when you decide you want to put the gearbox back together, contact me and I can scrounge up all the used parts for you to complete the task within your proposed budget. I'll also throw in 30+ years of rebuild tips for free.

Good luck with the dash refurbishment!
Mike Miller
 
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