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Issues with my car

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Spriteman65

Spriteman65

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Billm suggested I post theis to the board. He has been trying to help me with some issues on my car. I included all of our back and forth conversation. If anyone has any ideas they would be most appreciated.

Thanks
Jeff

Bill,
I could use some of your expert help. I am at my wits end trying to get this car to run properly. This is what has happened: I drove car to the ABFM in Bellevue, first time I operated it at sustained highway speeds since purchase. Parked it in my garage for a week after I got home. Next time I tried to start it up I got a big white cloud out the exhaust. It only did that once. I have pulled the carbs and readjusted to factory specs. I replaced the distributor (the old one seized), fuel pump, plugs, and wires. I set the static timing per the process in the manual but car wont start at that point. If I rotate the distributor about 1-2 inches clockwise from this point the car will run but at around 3000 rpm only. At this point I can rotate back and car will idle above 1000 rpm, no lower. I used a propane torch to check for vacuum leak and could find none. The water temp climbs rapidly and the exhaust header is cherry red which would indicate lean or too much timing. Maybe the white cloud was the indicator and I have a blown head gasket? Any insight you have for a simple solution would be most helpful before I pull the top end off and check the headgasket.

Thanks
Jeff

Jeff
It really sounds like a blown head gasket-
do a compression check and I will bet that you find at least one (probably 2,next to each other) are very low.
Try this first but I'll bet that it is correct
Bill

Bill,
Looks to me like it was not the head gasket.

https://photobucket.com/Headgasket

I guess I will go back thru the carburators again, put the head back on, set valve lash and timing and hope it solves the problem.

Jeff

That is strange- when you got the white smoke did it remain for as long as the engine ran or stop reasonable quickly?
Do you have a regular "points" type distributor or an electronic one?
Did you do a compression check before you pulled the head? (could be a cracked head, but not likely).
Bill

The white smoke was there until I shut the car down. Did not runit that long as I figured something was amiss. I have a new 45D points distributor. I did not run a compression test prior to pulling the head, in retrospect would have been a good idea. I guess I will put it back together this weekend and see what happens. The top of the "flying saucer" PCV was a bit loose, maybe this was my vacuum leak? I think I may plug the hole on the intake manifold for now and run the crankcase open to see if that helps.

Jeff

It is possible that it was the leak but not likely but that would be a good test.
The distributor should not affect the engine like that so I wouldn't worry about that too much.
Put it back together and see how it goes (and then do a comp test just for general info). Hopefully whatever it was is gone now.
Bill

Just had another thought. What if the timing chain jumped a tooth or two? Are these cars suceptible to that? Is there any chance of checking this without pulling the engine?

Jeff

Neither probably nor common- and it would have had to jump 3 or 4 teeth to really make much difference. It is possible but difficult to check it in the car.
Bill
 
Not sure about all of your problem but I think part of it is a timing issue. If the header is cherry red it is probable your timing is retarded. I would go back through your static timing procedure again. Make sure #1 is on tdc of the compression stroke and verify the plug wires are on correctly.
 
Peter,
One of the times I was trying to get this straightened out the engine was running, coughed and kind of spit the distributor out of the block. It now won't turn, and has little pieces of metal under the breaker plate.
 
Spit the distributor out of the block? As in, no retaining hardware installed?
Sure looks to me like something is happening between the end cylinders and the center ones. Gasket is awfully dark there, both ends.
Head straight?
Good machine shops have precision level bars, use a feeler gauge to check.
Cherry red exhaust....man, you've have to have some real retardation issue to get anywhere close.
Major vacuum leak will do it (had a stuck EGR once on a Dodge that did that)

Check the head for straight. Replace the gasket.
Check the cam timing (rockers on, top dead centre on #1, not the compression stroke, rather 360 crank degrees off, at TDc you should have split overlap, i.e. both valves are slightly open, and moving crank either way gives you more valve movement.
Check it to make sure.
Then, roll it 360, get the distributor in right, check firing order, plug PCV temporarily, and start it.
 
TOC,
The retaining hardware was there, it was just loose as I was fiddling with the timing. I'll check things as you suggest, hopefully all will be well when I re-assemble.

In case I have the timing out by 180deg, does anyone know if the car will run as I described?

Jeff
 
No, won't run 180 out, may well backfire out the carbs something fierce, however. Once you have determined the cam is timed to the crank, the distributor is pointing at #1 on TDC, the wiring firing order is correct, the head is checked with a new gasket, valves run, PCV temporarily plugged, start it and report back.

Oh, and while they're checking the head for straight, have them do a pressure test on it, just to make sure it ain't busted somewhere.
 
I'm wondering if the freezing distributor made something else in the timing componants jump, i.e, chain, dizzy drive etc.
 
I know but he doesn't have the head on it right now from what I understand. Shouldn't he be able to go to TDC and check the orientation of the drive slot?

Checking overlap is a slick idea Dad, I'll have to remember that. :thumbsup:
 
Kellysguy nailed it. The drive slot has to be incorrect and not 180 degrees. Just a tooth or two, I would expect one.

Check Page B.4, Para B.5 of the original Sprite mark I Workshop Manual and start there.
 
Do the same thing with pushrods and fingertips. If the drive gear was wrong in the first place, it will still be off. He need to know where the cam is.
 
I would check the slot long before I would check the timing chain. I always tend to do the easy stuff first.
 
He has an inability to keep it running, no matter where it turns the distributor, for any length of time under A) 3K and B) 1K, If he moves the distributor, it's the same as moving the drive. If he sets the drive, and the chain has an issue (or the key....) then he has the drive set to what?
He needs to know where the cam is in relation to the crank.
This way he can find out if it's close....if it is, yeah, check the drive. If it's not, fix the problem.

Split Overlap....on TDC, NOT compression, as you rotate normally, the exhaust valve is open, piston coming up, as it reaches the top of the stroke, DEPENDING ON CAM, you get a point that both valves are partially open, right at TDC, or one just closes as the other just opens (start of intake stroke). At TDC (compression), those lobes are split at the bottom, if you look underneath with the pan off. A really easy way to tell if your timing chain has jumped, or a key has sheared off. Try it next time you're adjusting valves.
 
If it was a lot of white smoke, that had to have been water. That static timing deal sounds like a real mystery. Has anybody known timing chains to jump teeth? I have seen that on belts but not on chains because they usually just break, but then you would think that would be a valve timing problem. hang in there, I am sure you will figure it out :thumbsup:
 
I've seen them jump.....but only when badly worn, and usually there are holes in timing covers, too. Keys shearing, yes, happens too, especially if bolts aren't tight. Smoke, that's why I said A) check the head for level, B) new head gasket, and C) pressure test the head.
Now that it's apart, you cannot do a compression test, or a leakdown, you can't check for water in the cylinders, so, you do due diligence while the parts are off so you KNOW they're right.
No pressure test of the head, back together and more white smoke, then what?

Is it really white smoke? Did you walk thought it and smell it? Did it smell of fuel? Oil? Or anti-freeze? Tests you do BEFORE you pull it apart.
 
regularman said:
Has anybody known timing chains to jump teeth? :
Click to expand...

Absolutely. I'll bet Dad asnd Doc has seen more of 'em than me.

I've seen those gear-to-gear phenolic or bakelite (or whatever they were made out of) ones jump too. They (no matter what type of drive) usually do it when you shut it off.

My honda Z50 just did it yesterday.

I've used split overlap to verify TDC but not to check for jumped timing. That's a great idea.
 
OK- let's rephrase this-
Has anyone ever seen a 1275 (with dual row chain) jump timing?
Jeff's car has a 1275
BillM
 
First I saw it was a 1275 with double-row........but.......if he's sheared a key in the crank, it would jam on the remains, and be off. I think I said that twice.
Since there is a question, and he can't seem to get the distributor to any place where it will run right, and now it's all apart, how hard is it just to check? If it's right, we can cross that off the list...and once the head is confirmed correct, and a new gasket, and it's back together again, we can deal with drive placement, knowing cam timing is on, head and gasket are correct.

I'm really surprised nobody has mention the coil yet. That always seems to fix them.
 
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