Introduction/Oil Leaks

[rlich8]

Hi all,

I see a familiar name or two on here from MGExperience and I'm sure there's a guy or two from the E-Type mailing list, so hello to those guys and hello to all!

My name is Royal, and I have a problem, I'm addicted to English cars. I see the Triumph forum is fairly active here, so that's why I decided to join. Seems tech tips and TR4 conversation is a bit rarer than talk of XKE's and MGB's. Always looking to soak up knowledge. At 24, I know how to do the basics, and get tons of help from my father (former Brit Car mechanic!), but enjoy finding tons of sage advice on these forums, so hopefully I am welcomed!!!

Just picked myself up a '66 TR4A IRS w/ Overdrive & chrome wires. Beautiful little car. Red. Solid and doesn't need a whole lot. Some bushings here and there, new rear springs & wheel cylinders, a little wiring work, exhaust system, massaging of the interior. But that's about it! Should be a fun summer w/ this car.

Also need some help diagnosing an oil leak. To preface, the car needs to be *cleaned* inside and out. Washed, vacuumed, buffed, pressure washed on the underside, etc.

Getting to my problem...the oilpan and trans also need to be degreased and wiped down. They are absolutely coated in good ol' British sweat. No tappet covers/gaskets to leak here, like on the MGB's. Valve cover gasket is good...bone dry around the edges. I suggested rear main seal to my dad. He says they are not prone to leaking but it is a possibility, but to ask here. Could it be the overdrive unit/something from the trans? Is it likely the rear main?

All input & thoughts welcome!!!

Thank you!

Royal Lichter

 

[Darrell_Walker]

Welcome!

There are plenty of places to leak (I know, I've had all of them!). Probably best to try to clean it up and get a better idea of where it is coming from, but some common areas to check:

-The bolts that hold the generator bracket to the block. The holes are through the block. Once I lost all three of them.

- The tubes that hold the tappets in the head.

- The fuel pump

- Oil pan, the flange gets distorted if over-tightened

- If you see oil between the engine and the tranny, it could be the rear main seal, the rear cam plug, or the front tranny seal.

- The front main seal. There is also a stud in the middle of the timing cover, should have fiber washers inside and out

- Both the engine and tranny drain plugs are tapered, if not in tight they can leak.

- Check to see that you have the plug in the block where the road draft tube goes on earlier cars (or if someone has installed the tube). I had neither.

 

[DNK]

Welcome Royal. Plenty of that sage avvise and plenty of ribbing to go along with it.
So hopefully ya got a sense of humor
Ya must if ya own a TR

 

[TR3driver]

Hi Royal. Welcome to the asylum!

Er, with due respect to your Dad, the later TRactor motors are even more famous for leaking from the rear main seal than the earlier ones. The original seal is a non-contact design that was actually quite advanced for 1950, but not particularly compatible with the PCV systems used after 1963 or so.

The problem is bad enough that there are several different "improved" seal kits on the market. If your rear main turns out to be a significant leak (and as Darrell says, there are lots of other suspects, so it's important to identify where the problems are first), I would suggest the latest "Viton" version. I believe you can order it direct from A.R.E. (who helped bring it to the USA), or TRF is now stocking them as P/N HP600. Might be a bit cheaper from ARE, as Joe offers a reconditioned housing (on an exchange basis for your original) which is less costly than the new housing in the TRF kit.

Note that changing the rear seal really requires removing the engine from the car. In an emergency, it can be done in place (by removing the gearbox & flywheel), but it's definitely not recommended (particularly if you are hoping it won't leak afterwards).

A few other thoughts, less common but possible spots:

The coil mounting bolts also penetrate the block, and can leak.

There is a row of plugs down the LH side of the engine that can leak. Be careful though, as 3 of them are actually setscrews for the cam bearings and installing the wrong one (or even leaving out the copper washer) can damage the bearing.

Also a plug on the LH rear corner of the head that can leak.

And several of them hidden on the back of the engine, that are sometimes confused with rear main leaks.

Anyway, good luck in your questing for the rare and elusive leakless Triumph!

BTW, we love pictures on BCF.

 

[poolboy]

As mentioned by Randall, poor positive crankcase ventillation (PCV) and the accompanying build up of crankcase pressure will push oil out of all kind of places. You might want to check and clean.

 

[tdskip]

Welcome!

 

[Andrew Mace]

Lots of good advice above. I'd just add one suggestion: get that underside clean first and then monitor for a few weeks to see just what is leaking and just how profuse that leak might be. If you're adding a quart of oil every week and not burning it, or you find you're constantly topping up the gearbox with several ounces of gear oil, you've obviously got something to deal with.

I appreciate clean as much as anyone, but I admit that I don't obsess about it (nothing wrong with that obsession, though)! And to me, even a drip or two a day isn't necessarily worth $$$ in parts and labor to try to fix! :laugh:

 

[rlich8]

Thank you everyone for your quick and helpful replies.

I was suspecting Dad may have been confusing the later engines for the earlier ones. We were looking through TRF catalog and did see a number of replacements. A little oil leaking is fine - it is a British car. The bottom of the car being completely soaked - not fine.

I did forget to mention: the motor was rebuilt and I assume they installed a new rear main seal. Not sure if that really adds anything to the conversation, "assumptions" are not really hard facts.

BUT... If we have to pull the engine, we pull the engine - no big deal in the end. We just pulled the engine to do a clutch and trans rebuild on my E Type, so the TR would be comparatively easy in terms of pulling the engine and the gearbox.

I am putting my money on some sort of PCV issue or something pretty simple. The engine itself in this car was pretty clean (but who knows, they may have cleaned the engine bay right before I purchased the car).

I'll do some hunting today

Thank you all!

 

[TR3driver]

and I assume they installed a new rear main seal. Not sure if that really adds anything to the conversation, "assumptions" are not really hard facts.

Indeed, the rear seal frequently gets reused, because it isn't <span style="font-weight: bold">supposed</span> to wear (being non-contact) and any wear present is generally not visible to the naked eye.

But another problem that can affect even new seals: the seal is not a simple bolt-on affair but needs to be aligned using a purpose-made mandrel. And the general consensus seems to be that there is a mistake in the original factory drawing for the mandrel, which leaves an extra .002" for the oil to leak through! That is why the "Viton" kit includes a new mandrel, which is made to the "correct" smaller size.

 

[djwoody]

I am putting my money on some sort of PCV issue or something pretty simple.

Hey Royal. My '67 TR4A was completely missing the PCV valve when I purchased it last September. Someone had bypassed it which obviously caused significant crank case pressure because I also had oil oozing everywhere.

I installed a new PCV valve over the winter and am planning to get the TR out of winter storage this weekend so we'll see if my leak problems have been solved.

Good luck and keep us posted.

 

[Dale]

Welcome to the forum with the best folks and the best admin. Good luck with your 4.

 

[rlich8]

Hi Guys,

Did some looking today, and I've come to a few conclusions.

-I forgot to mention I have a spin-on oil filter. There was fairly fresh oil around the rim of it. I'll have to check this more and possibly tighten or turn back to original.
-Fuel Pump gasket should probably be changed too, felt some oil around the bottom of it.

-Coil bolt holes are clean
-Forgot to check generator bolt holes
-Tappet tubes are bone dry
-Valve cover edge bone dry
-PCV plug in the block used on earlier cars is plugged up and not being used

Still have to mess with the PCV system more and come to some conclusions there.

Looks like I've made a *slight* amount of progress!

Oh yeah, a picture of my TR:

(yes, the world logo is missing - I've ordered a replacement from Moss :wink: )

 

[HerronScott]

Royal,

Welcome! Nice to have another TR4A join the group here.

So which car marked the garage in front of your car there? :wink:

Scott

 

[Darrell_Walker]

-I forgot to mention I have a spin-on oil filter. There was fairly fresh oil around the rim of it. I'll have to check this more and possibly tighten or turn back to original.

Check to see that there is only one o-ring between the spin on adapter and the original housing. I found three in mine, definitely a case where more isn't better!

 

[svtmikey]

One easy way to find a hard to narrow down oil leak is to use an oil leak dye.
Clean the engine really well
You add the dye into your oil filler and run the car for a few days.
You then shine a special light that makes the dye flourescent and the source of the leak practially jumps out at you.
You can buy the kits just about anywhere, I bought mine on Amazon for about $50.00. It came with the dye, the light and some cool looking glasses that help you see the dye better.
It is what a "good" shop will use to find a particularly hard to find leak.
I just used it on my daughters 97 Neon...shop told her it was a blown head gasket, turned out to be a leaking sensor sealjust above the head gasket. It was the difference between $2000.00 and $20.00.

Mikey