Initial Oil Pressure - Oil for break in?

[mjobrien]

A few questions for those that have been there.....

With the engine in it's time to check for oil pressure. The engine had oil pressure when the build was completed about 18 months back. Since then I had to reseal the oil pan and refill the engine.

1) I refilled with GTX 20W-50, should this be 30W for break in?

2) How long should it take to get a reading on the gauge? I did check the lines and gauge with air, got 40psi with 40psi of air.


3) Starter is very very weak (won't turn with any plugs in) and I would guess that speed of the cranking is an issue for building pressure?


4) Any suggestions on a source for rebuilt starter?


Thanks,
Michael

 

[Dave Russell]

Hi Michael,
1- The GTX should be fine. I would however, add a ZDDP supplement such as GM EOS to the oil.

2- With reasonably fast cranking, you should show gage pressure within 10 to 15 seconds.

3- Are you sure that the battery is not low or bad connections?

4- I personally would use the gear reduction starter from APT. It draws much less current & cranks much faster. I suggest APT because it has many starter to nose indexing options which may be needed to get the starter to easily fit in the intended space.
D

 

[glemon]

Definetely use the EOS, latest versions of GTZ have reduced ZDDP, and you may ruin the cam and tappets quickly without it. You should be able to get it at the parts counter at your local GM dealer.


My local chevy dealer was out, but the Buick guys down the street had it.

 

[mjobrien]

Thanks, I'll get some ZDDP supplement on my next trip to the auto parts store...

I'm pretty sure I had a good battery and connections, the starter is really really old and has several war marks to show for the age /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

where can I find a the APT Starter?

M

 

[Dave Russell]

Try here:
https://www.aptfast.com/
Not cheap but a vast improvement.
Pic attached.

I had my original starter rebuilt by a "very reputable" rebuilder. It lasted about two years. The GRS only draws about 1/2 as much current also.

I've been getting by very nicely for the last year or so with a very small WESTCO 12V31M sealed battery which was OEM on the Miatas. 33 AH capacity, weighs 24 lb. Pic attached.
D

 

[Ed Kaler]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:],,,some ZDDP supplement... [/QUOTE]

Michael:

There are "supposed" to be some BUT after a LOT of conversations and more reading than I have ever done in my life it seems to narrow down to GM EOS (only availble it your favorite GM product Dealer) and Lucas Oil has one also.

Ed

 

[kurts100]

Michael,

As Dave mentioned regarding bad connections, make sure the ground strap between the engine/starter and the frame makes good contact especially at the frame. Paint or corrosion may need to be removed to make good metal to metal contact. I'm told this can effect the starter.

Good Luck,

Kurt

 

[mjobrien]

Kurt, Will do... Thanks.

 

[mjobrien]

Just as a fast follow up - engine has oil pressure and just cranking on starter is hit 50psi. New start soon so we can try with compression and then startign it for real...

Also there was some mention of the ZDDP additive. I found the following URL that might interest all on getting the additive.

https://www.zddplus.com/

Michael.

 

[tahoe healey]

Sounds too good to be true. That's ten dollars a year more to run our cars.

 

[Dave Russell]

Hi Michael,
Good find on the ZDDPlus. Their info is a lot more factual than most, with only a little truth stretching. Very refreshing to find someone in sales that actually tells the truth, at least mostly.

Fortunately, I have a large stock of the original GM EOS so won't be needing anything for a while. I'm sure that a lot of other folks will be glad it's available though.
D

 

[Michael Oritt]

Just to add to the equation check out Torco ZEP at:

https://www.torcoracingoils.com/

Scroll down the website to view the interview with Jay Leno--a pretty glitzy unpaid endorsee perhaps, but his recommendation is still based only on a negative (the absence of an incident) as opposed to a positive!

The fellow who built the race engine for my Elva poured one container of ZEP onto the top of the cylinder head prior to initial startup (with Valvoline VR1 oil) and recommends the Torco racing oil because of its claimed high ZDDP content. This stuff is even more expensive than the Royal Purple XPR racing oil that I have been using!

BTW Dave, who is that guy in your avatar?

 

[HandyAndy]

Well at least one mystery has been solved. Years ago I used a green racing oil, Kendall, in all my Austin motors; the Big Healey, the Mini and the Bugeye Sprite. (To say nothing about the Volvos, Peugeots and Subaru’s.) Then in the late nineties, my supply ran out for unknown reasons and I substituted Valvoline in its place with good results. ‘Good results’ means that at every check of the bearings and at every rebuild or refreshing of the motors, I had little or no wear, the oil was clean and looked just as good coming out as it did going in.

That all changed when in late 2006, the oil companies began to phase out the needed zinc (ZDDP) and molybdenum disulfide from the oil’s manufacturing, thus rendering a great and reliable all-around driving oil (just about all of them were!) and a very good racing oil, into something that literally ruined camshafts, lifters and pistons in flat-tappet engines. The new oils would not handle water in the oil, fuel leaking into the oil and seemingly would not filter out damaging particles but instead seemed to carry them to all parts of the motor; something I had never seen before in 46 years of racing.

When I found out the reason for my very premature wear from the experts in 2006, I became interested in a good solution; heck, I wanted the ‘best’ solution. I tried the additives with some success. I tried the diesel engine oils until they too became prostituted. Then, to my amazement, The Green Oil came out of the mist in the form of Penn-Grade 1 in its various forms. Whereas Kendall had been good to me; that when I found out it had been bought out by the now-known Brad Penn oil company, (along with Amille, a very good racing oil which I was only able to find in the eastern US), that I knew at last I had found a solution to my high wear problems. Brad Penn advertises added ZDDP (zinc) and added Moly to combat the flat-tappet wear problem. And I have it on good authority that it will lubricate the engine innards with gas, oil and crap in it, just the same as if they were not there. Older engine do not have the modern air or oil filters imbedded in them as do modern engines. Modern engines have roller cams, roller lifters and fuel injection; older flat-tappet cammed engines do not. Check them out at: https://www.bradpennracing.com. Also recommended is Castrol SynTech. This is a brand name and not a description of the oil. Most synthetics are a mix of synthetics and real oil.

Choose wisely,

And that’s all I know at the moment.

 

[Dave Russell]

Just to add to the equation check out Torco ZEP at:
https://www.torcoracingoils.com/

The fellow who built the race engine for my Elva poured one container of ZEP onto the top of the cylinder head prior to initial startup (with Valvoline VR1 oil) and recommends the Torco racing oil because of its claimed high ZDDP content.

BTW Dave, who is that guy in your avatar?

Hi Michael,
Torco seems to have a lot of hype but no meaningful numbers on how much ZEP needs to be added to how much oil to give what percent ZDDP. Likewise, their oil spec sheets don't give any real info either. I notice you said "claimed ZDDP content". Why don't they give any numbers?

Torco does claim that ZDP has moly in it. From all I have read, moly really doesn't work so well in engine oil for very long. There is a problem of it not staying in suspension & settling out of the oil. Maybe ok for first assembly short time lube, but not for long. I'm sure Torco really know this, but when most folks hear "moly" is in a lubricant, they think it's the ultimate. More advertising value for Torco.

On the other hand, ZDDPlus at least tells how much is needed to get what percent ZDDP content & makes numerical comparisons. I believe their numbers are a little high, as I think it's generally agreed that .12% Z & around .12% P are adequate.

Not sure about the "no more available GM EOS" claims. I may be wrong, but I think that AC Delco is now marketing the same thing under different branding.

For your use I would go with an oil that actually provides a current, truthful quantative analysis of their oil contents. I say current because many oil companies have not updated their info for quite a while. I think the RP-XPR is one of the "good guys" at least for racing use with frequent oil changes. Torco may be ok, especially in their 4 stroke motorcycle oils. They just don't give out much information.

The old guy in the pic is my Grand Kids' Mothers' Father. At his age, not so bashful anymore.
D

 

[Ed_K]

I have been searching the web for useful information about ZDDP availability for our car oil. I ran across the post from the man that caused the ZDDPlus to come into existence.
Here is a link to what he said.
https://www.turbobuick.com/forums/engine-tech/230483-zddp-question.html
Scroll down and read the 7th post by A200RICH and see what he went through to get his hands on some ZDDP. This is very interesting information.
Ed

 

[anthony7777]

dave, im buying the gear reduction starter and replacing the battery in my bj7, i just now searched the "westco" batt. 12v31m they list it as being 7.5" long ans 5" wide, did i miss something here? is this the one your using in a motor bike or lawn mower? sounds kinda small, cant think of how ill use all that extra room in the boot. /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/savewave.gif

 

[Dave Russell]

Hi Anthony,
That's the battery. Small but powerful. It's rated at 475 CCA. It wouldn't crank for ten minutes at zero degrees but will certainly handle anything that starts reasonably quickly. The engine is a 2.7 liter four with 9.8 to 1 compression.

The attached pic shows the 1/4" diameter rods with end plates that I made for a hold down.
D

 

[HandyAndy]

What does it weigh? Is there a Group number on it? (Or dimensions?)

 

[Dave Russell]

It's a group 12V31M. It is a AGM type. no electrolyte to spill. Built to replace the original Panasonic battery for Miata. Dimensions are, 7.5 long, 5 wide, 7.25 high.

It fits very easily in the RH side of my BN2.

Quote from my earlier post:
"I've been getting by very nicely for the last year or so with a very small WESTCO 12V31M sealed battery which was OEM on the Miatas. 33 AH capacity, weighs 25 lb."
You can see it here:
https://www.batteryweb.com/miata.cfm
D

 

[HandyAndy]

Excellent! Thank you so much. Very helpful.