TR2/3/3A ignition timing could be set with a test light

[sp53]

Thanks you guys. I have had a thought in the back of my mind about the timing chain teeth. I remember some talk a while back that Steve M mentioned with valve timing and how there is an area in the rotation of the valves, cam, and TDC that can be assembled incorrectly and still look correct. Something about number 1 piston and number 4 piston with some difference in the time they arrive at TDC, my headache is coming back. I put this motor together with different parts from different motors.

I used the marks on old pulleys and TDC and turned the engine over by hand to watch the marks make a few cycles to stay on the marks as the engine was tuned over. But I have made some major mechanical mistakes in the past.

The reason the plugs are carbon fowled with lean mix is still a mystery to me. Maybe incorrect valve timing could cause something like that.

Today I will go out and see how the marks compare to TDC with the piston is at the highest point.

Thanks everyone Steve

 

[sp53]

Hey Stevery, I tried finding the trick you mentioned on how to use a tub and some oil. Cannot seem to find any information on that, I do see how people use a soft tube or something similar put into the cylinder and then the piston is move to its highest point and then back down then rocked to find the zenith. hopefully with the valves closed.

Is that method something like that? I have never used something that method, but I can see how that would provide TDC, right, or is there a different way to find the correct TDC.

Steve

 

[CJD]

A year old is enough that I would try adding fresh gas before worrying about the starting too much. At just a year old, I would not drain the old gas, but just add the same amount of fresh gas. What made me think of it is that you said it fires right up on ether. With old gas the light gas components will evaporate over time...and those are the vapors that help in cold starts.

Cam timing is a possibility, but I doubt you would have gotten it to fire up at all if it was off. Before removing any covers to check, I would run a compression check. If it checks good, then it is not likely cam timing. If it is still a concern, you can check by removing the valve cover and following the number 1 valve lift in relation to crank position.

 

[Stevenry]

Hi Steve,

I forget exactly how I connected the clear hose to the spark plug hole, (I did inherit a whole box of rubber and cork stoppers from my father, some with tubes through them) but I filled #1 cylinder with motor oil and held the hose vertical as my son turned over the engine by hand. The oil rises and falls as the piston goes up and down. I used the degree wheel to find the middle between the oil rising and falling in the tube. I couldn’t use the pushrods because the cam wasn’t degreed yet, and I guess I couldn’t get my dial gauge to work on the top of the piston.

There was a glorious amount of smoke when I fired up the engine. I too, somehow in the whole process still lost track of where thing were and managed to put the distributor back in 180 degrees off.

Steve Y

 

[sp53]

I went and already took the valve cover off and put the crank on TDC because I had the plugs out and wanted to the valves. Cylinder number one looks like both valves are closed. My thoughts were there are a lot of little teeth moving on those gears and maybe if one tooth is off that would explain some of the problems I have had with this engine. The engine carbons up the pugs too quickly. I have been chasing fuel and timing to clear up the carbon, but nothing seemed to work.

I put 3 pints of canned 92 octane from HD on top of a quarter tank of fuel. Now that the valves look ok visually I will put the plugs back in and try and start it. I also took some fine paper to the points for good measure.

I am really struggling not buying a new distributor. I saw one for 150.00 that takes the older cap, but maybe I do not need it. Years ago I bought new Lucas nos and it fixed that car right up.

No problem Stevery I can so how that would work. After I toyed with it I realized the piston was so high up nothing would go up and down if put it in the cylinder. Then I thought yeh a plastic tube could act as an outside shield I could put something in the tube. Then when you mention oil saw it

Thanks you guys steve

 

[charleyf]

I went and already took the valve cover off and put the crank on TDC because I had the plugs out and wanted to the valves. Cylinder number one looks like both valves are closed. My thoughts were there are a lot of little teeth moving on those gears and maybe if one tooth is off that would explain some of the problems I have had with this engine. The engine carbons up the pugs too quickly. I have been chasing fuel and timing to clear up the carbon, but nothing seemed to work.

I put 3 pints of canned 92 octane from HD on top of a quarter tank of fuel. Now that the valves look ok visually I will put the plugs back in and try and start it. I also took some fine paper to the points for good measure.

I am really struggling not buying a new distributor. I saw one for 150.00 that takes the older cap, but maybe I do not need it. Years ago I bought new Lucas nos and it fixed that car right up.

No problem Stevery I can so how that would work. After I toyed with it I realized the piston was so high up nothing would go up and down if put it in the cylinder. Then I thought yeh a plastic tube could act as an outside shield I could put something in the tube. Then when you mention oil saw it

Thanks you guys steve

Instead of a new distributor you should consider getting yours rebuilt. My opinion is you are more assured of a quality part after the rebuild than you would be with modern "quality".
I used Distributor Doctor for all 3 of my TRs and am very happy with them.
Charley

 

[sp53]

Now that I think about the car, I had a similar problem last winter with this car because I did not drive it. Moreover, this is the car that had the cam shaft replaced about 4 years ago. And our old buddy John suggested a few times I need to drive it more.

Anyways I started it up with starter fluid after I tried starting it with some short blast of cranking. The battery or starter are sounding tired. I hope it is the battery because it has the old bomb starter.

I advanced the timing a few clicks on the dizzy and got the car running strong with an idle of 800. It pinged a little when I tried pulling a small hill in second. I am convinced the valve timing is correct by the way the car accelerate and idled plus the fuel ratio sounds correct. The higher octane fuel probably help a lot with that also. When the engine pings, I am supposed to retard the timing a little, right!

I plan to drive the car more this winter and see what happens. I will use starting fluid for a while until the car is driven more, and then hopefully the car will start better.

Yes and thanks Charley, I will look into the distributor rebuild and see. I like the look of the stock distributor anyway.

Thanks all of you Steve

 

[poolboy]

If you are going to try to evaluate the ignition timing by pinging that is usually done in high gear, 4th not 2nd.
See post # 13 in this topic

https://www.britishcarforum.com/community/threads/ignition-timing-could-be-set-with-a-test-light.131204/#post-1240217

 

[CJD]

Yes, if it is pinging, the retard the timing a bit at a time until it goes away. I agree with you that the cam timing is correct. Otherwise it would run poorly at low speed, or fail to rev fully on the high side. I think once you burn through this tank and refill it will start and run fine.

Very clean engine rebuild! I like the fresh rockers and braided stainless fuel lines.

 

[sp53]

The car might be coming around. I put in a new battery yesterday because something in the starting system was not doing its job. I went with the battery idea first because it was a Cosco 2019---- ended up with a Diehard #27. The battery looks good and cranked the car right over. I am glad that it was not the boob starter. Anyways found a station with 92 octane and filled it. I will try some starting without the starter fluid, but I do not want to wear down the starter for no good reason.

Thanks Poolboy for the clarification on 4th gear. I kinda knew that, but I have never followed the pinging theory out to the end. After setting the timing with a trouble light, I am going to follow the idea through.

Setting the timing by listening to the engine in 4th on a hill should be some finer tuning and I think this car might need that and to be driven more. I am planning to drive it every day for month or until it starts starting better

PS All I have a patent pending battery slide and a sore back.

Thanks everyone Steve

 

[TFB]

I think a final timing check requires a timing light and a mark at about 34degrees btc to verify smooth full advance before any road adjustments.
My distubutor rebuild from Jeff at advanced distributor that included rebuilt vacuum advance was cheaper than buying a new vacuum advance only.
Tom

 

[karls59tr]

I think a final timing check requires a timing light and a mark at about 34degrees btc to verify smooth full advance before any road adjustments.
My distubutor rebuild from Jeff at advanced distributor that included rebuilt vacuum advance was cheaper than buying a new vacuum advance only.
Tom

Is 34 degrees about 3/8"?

 

[charleyf]

32 degrees would be about 1&1/2".
On my cars a static timing of 4 degrees is 3/16" . Then when the engine is running and the springs in the distributor then advance the timing (automatically). On my car that shows as about 18 degrees at 2500 RPM.
But 34 degrees????
Charley

 

[karls59tr]

Just wondering......do you see any problem with setting the timing at 3/8" (8 degrees btdc)? Karl

 

[charleyf]

No.

 

[sp53]

The car started on its own without the starter fluid yesterday, yippy. Thanks John for starting with the basics. The car comes down to an 800 hundred idle and idles through an average traffic light without dying, another yippy. These cars have been keeping me on my toes and provided educational lessons and memories since I was 17. Happy holidays

Steve

 

[TFB]

Is 34 degrees about 3/8"?

I have a non stock pulley that I had to mark myself so cant speak to the math.
If you look at ignition advance chart for tr2-4 there are different profiles.
I think verifying max advance is an important check.
A slow blip up to 5k and I watch the advance move smoothly to my 34 mark.
18degrees at 2500 seems low according to the charts.
Tom

 

[sp53]

Interesting advancement stuff thanks a lot you guys and now that I have the car running well I want to fine tune the car more. I like this new gas station, but full price and they want to pump the fuel plus they will do all the old school stuff.

Anyways, I have not pulled the plugs yet. I am going to wait until the car is running rough which usually (at least with me) means carbon.

Hey Karl, I find the mark in the pulley difficult to see and find. What I do when the plugs are out is pull the dizzy cover-- turn the motor over by hand and line the rotor to the front push rod--- then I reach down and feel around for the hole in the pulley. It is usually right under the timing chain cover mark.

steve

 

[charleyf]

Interesting advancement stuff thanks a lot you guys and now that I have the car running well I want to fine tune the car more. I like this new gas station, but full price and they want to pump the fuel plus they will do all the old school stuff.

Anyways, I have not pulled the plugs yet. I am going to wait until the car is running rough which usually (at least with me) means carbon.

Hey Karl, I find the mark in the pulley difficult to see and find. What I do when the plugs are out is pull the dizzy cover-- turn the motor over by hand and line the rotor to the front push rod--- then I reach down and feel around for the hole in the pulley. It is usually right under the timing chain cover mark.

steve

And then mark it with white paint. That is TDC.
Charley

 

[CJD]

Glad to hear the car is running, Steve. It's a beautiful restoration!

Before we were hit with the ethanol fuel, it was always best to fill your tank when sitting for a while, to prevent condensation. Condensation was the bigger problem. With ethanol gas I do the opposite. I never have more than 1/4 tank. If it sits for a while, I add a water dissolver, as the ethanol breaks down into water and causes problems...like rust in the tank , bad starting. Then I have room to add good fresh fuel when I take the car out of storage.

Karl, the car will start and run with a wide range of initial timing settings. in general, the car will run best with extra advance on the timing. Then the problem becomes starting...the highly advanced timing will try to fight the starter, so starting will be a problem. If you ever plan to hand crank, then abide by the 3 degrees, aka 3/16" advance...to prevent the timing from popping against your arms while cranking. Finally, too much advance will result in pinging when accelerating hard or climbing a hill.

So...the goal is the most timing you can get in the engine...without getting one of the bad signs of too much advance:

Starter having trouble with the engine popping against it.
Pinging under hard acceleration
Engine trying to start backwards when hand cranking (which can cause injury!)

Finally, the signs of too little advance are:

A sluggish car that lost it' "pep"
Engine runs hotter than usual and tends to overheat easily

The beauty of these TR's is that they are very tough. Being low compression and all cast iron, they can tolerate a lot of abuse compared to a modern engine. There is plenty of margin to play around with different timings until you find one that works best for your car and driving pattern. Don't be afraid to experiment!