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TR4/4A How to test Overdrive out of the car

I retrieved a torque guage which measures cm-kg normally used to measure bearing preloads from my rarely used tool bin. A bit of a trick to adapt from 1/4" drive to 1/2" drive but a bit of duct tape finally did the job. Anyway, in Neutral it measured 4 cm-kph which converts to .289 ft-lbs very close to what I had estimated earlier. In reverse it pegged the gauge at 8 cm-kph but it was not very much more, maybe 9 at the most = .65 lb-ft.
Hope that this helps
Al
 
One last question for general discussion. The OD manual that I downloaded (https://www.tonydrews.com/Overdrive/A-type OD manual.pdf) refers to the correct positioning of the valve control lever. That is when the solenoid is actuated, the 3/16" hole on the other side has to line up with the hole on the OD body. Mine does not as the lever goes past the body hole. Should I readjust this?
If it was already working fine and you haven't had the adjustment apart; then it's probably best to leave it alone. All of the manuals talk about the hole lining up; but in fact that depends on certain components being exactly as original, with no wear. These units are old enough that there is frequently enough wear to make the setting hole inaccurate.

If you do want to readjust it, I strongly suggest using the "ball lift" method. This was not documented by the factory, but you can find a good discussion (including what measurement to use) on the Buckeye site. Basically, you remove the plug above the operating valve; sit a dial indicator on top of the ball (using a suitable length of hollow tubing as a probe), and check how much the ball moves when you lift the solenoid piston by hand. (Don't activate the solenoid electrically, because as Nelson noted, it makes a very effective ball launcher :smile: )
 
Another OD question. What grade of oil goes into the Trans/OD? The manual (p35) says 90 weight and the drained oil sure had that characteristic smell.
However the OD service manual (p 10) says 20 weight which I don't believe is right.
Also the operating pressure. Service manual says 420-445, the manual says 380-400
Weigh in please.
 
Laycock was originally rather specific about not using EP gear oil, and in the early days, that is also what Triumph recommended. Around 1959 or 1960, Triumph switched to recommending only EP gear oil. The story I heard (supposedly originating from an ex-factory engineer) is that they were having too many gearbox failures under warranty using motor oil, and felt that using gear oil would better protect the gearbox. Apparently it worked, because they kept recommending gear oil through the end of the TR6 run.

Personally, I use Redline MT-90, which is a synthetic GL4 oil specifically designed for use in synchronized manual transmissions. Before that, I used Valvoline VR1 20W50 motor oil. OD operation seems about the same on either one, but the Redline made the gearbox shift noticeably better.

I'm not certain what the right pressure is; it's different almost everywhere you look. For example, the TR4 workshop manual says 490-510, while the TR6 book only says 410-430 and the Stag 480-500. I'm guessing that the right answer depends on what engine and rear axle you have. (The IRS A-types have a smaller accumulator, apparently to make them shift smoother and not shock the IRS so hard when shifting under power. Lower operating pressure would help smooth the shift as well.) There is also a service note from 1964 that says it varies "according to the installation". From my own experience with TR3/A, anything over about 360 seems to work well enough, but any lower than that will let it slip in 2nd gear. Also, the OD service manual was written when the operating pistons were smaller, and OD only available in top gear for the TR2.

Watch out for potential coil bind when shimming up the main accumulator spring (if you have the early large accumulator). The Buckeye articles mention this in passing, but IMO do not fully explain the problem. When testing at relatively low rpm on the bench, the accumulator piston only has to open the relief port a tiny bit to control the oil pressure. But when pulling at 5000 rpm (or beyond), it has to move farther. I managed to shim to the point where the spring would bind with the ports only slightly open, which looked fine on the bench but let the pressure go way too high at high rpm. Lots of damage, including ruining the clutch plate, breaking thrust washers, etc.
 
Hi TR3driver. A little more digging on my part confirms that the TR4 and 4A solid axle with the larger accumulator called for the 380-400 pressure while the 4A IRS went for the smaller accumulator and the higher pressure. I have the IRS type from my donor car in my solid axle restoration (type 22/61753) so I'll shoot for the higher pressure.
Thanks for the quick reply
Al Shoop
 
A little more digging on my part confirms that the TR4 and 4A solid axle with the larger accumulator called for the 380-400 pressure
Interesting. Apparently that is from the 2nd edition, while the one I looked at appears to be a first edition (the edition page is missing). I'll have to make a note of that.
 
This is making me crazy. I got the pressure gauge but I can't figure out where to hook it up. The only clue from the buckeye site is with a modified control valve plug. Otherwise there does not seem to be any other place. Somewhere I remember a 1/4" NPT hole.
Sorry to be such a clueless dope, but this is the first time for me (after 35 years of wrenching) on this type of OD.
 
Right, no other place. You need a gauge adapter that fits in place of the control valve plug. There is no NPT hole on an A-type (unless someone added one). There's a photo on page 2-305 of the TR4 workshop manual.

A J-type has a plug just for the gauge, but even it isn't NPT.
 
Heres a picture of how I test atype overdrives
Philstr6
Phil
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Hey Randall
You came through again and much thanks. I have the Trans/OD mounted on the engine on a test stand. I think that I will run it up in 4th gear and energize the solenoid.
If it seems to go OK then I'm going to forgo the pressure test, otherwise Moss has a plug for $20. I can drill a small hole in the top and braze an adapter above it to fit the gauge.
Or maybe I should just spring for a premade one. I seem to remember that buckeye had a link where one could get this tasty item
Oh well, life goes on
 
Nice, but you don't actually show how the gauge attaches to the OD. Question: your picture shows 3 safety switches. Mine has only 2, one for 2nd gear and the other for 3rd and 4th. they were both non-functioning but Victoria British had inexpensive replacements ($20 including shipping). Unfortunately the new ones had vertical push connectors and I hope that I don't get some interference when the trans tunnel goes back on.
 
Heres a picture of the gauge in the overdrive
Phil
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Note that the $50 to Jay includes the oil filled pressure gauge. Nelson reported that a non-oil filled gauge died pretty quickly, so the oil appears to be important.

The third switch is for the backup lights. I was also a bit worried about interference with the cover, so I carefully bent the tabs down horizontal.


Something else I never noticed before : The TR4 workshop manual actually says the ball should lift by 1/32". We had some spirited discussions years ago, with a respected professional claiming it should only be .010"-.015".
 
As I was losing sleep last night thinking about the overdrive, I realized that without measuring the pressure, I could not be sure that it was working properly. This would necessitate pulling the trans out again and, as was mentioned earlier in this thread, is a pain in the ***. Not that I am cheap, but I have a problem spending $50 for a tool that I will never use again. Maybe we could establish a tool bin resource that could be shared. For example, I have the crank rear seal centering tool and a made up tool for spinning up the oil pump etc.
 
Trans doesn't have to come out to use guage. I checked a couple with my guage while trans is still in car. I would think you could resell guage here after you are done with it.
 
I don't think I have ever bought a tool that I only used once. There is always another use that comes up for it! This is a very simple set-up for a gage. The total investment is only a bit more than the 2-way shipping for a loaner would be.
 
As I was losing sleep last night thinking about the overdrive, I realized that without measuring the pressure, I could not be sure that it was working properly. This would necessitate pulling the trans out again and, as was mentioned earlier in this thread, is a pain in the ***. Not that I am cheap, but I have a problem spending $50 for a tool that I will never use again. Maybe we could establish a tool bin resource that could be shared. For example, I have the crank rear seal centering tool and a made up tool for spinning up the oil pump etc.


Pm me your address,you can borrow one of mine
Philstr6
Phil
 
Hey Phil
Maybe you want to sell it.
Or
Send me a paypal request for the shipping cost and I'll authorize it and supply my address.
Also I have a lot of spares, some NOS, some used off my donor car. If you need anything, it's yours.
alvinshoop@gmail.com
 
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