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Healey Shroud Repair
- Thread starter Martec
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Randy Forbes
Yoda
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I had a guy__mobile welding rig__say that welding on the Healey shrouds he was repairing for me wasn't anything special. He was a good TIG welder, but used whatever filler rods he had on his truck, certainly nothing specific for "Birmabright" that the Healeys were stamped from.
If you're wanting to install new repair panels, then you must have some of the original that was cut away. I'd make some practice welds, fixing splits or whatever, until you get your settings right and get your confidence up. If nothing else, you can get the panels all lined up and tacked together. That'll give you the option of closing the gaps, or calling in a pro.
Good luck.
If you're wanting to install new repair panels, then you must have some of the original that was cut away. I'd make some practice welds, fixing splits or whatever, until you get your settings right and get your confidence up. If nothing else, you can get the panels all lined up and tacked together. That'll give you the option of closing the gaps, or calling in a pro.
Good luck.
RAC68
Darth Vader
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A while back I was hit in the rear that required patch panels installed on the rear shroud. An analysis by an experienced aluminum welder cautioned on having it done as the alloy was quite different from the patch panel and could cause some major issues in the join. He suggested I consider the new glue's that were being used by Audi and the body shop agreed. A small attachment piece was glued to the rear of the shroud and the patch panel glued to it. That was in 2001 and, to date, all seems tight and in good order. I can't say it is or is not as good as a weld but if Audi has bet the future on gluing aluminum structures, you may want to investigate further.
All the best,
Ray(64BJ8P1)
All the best,
Ray(64BJ8P1)
Healey Nut
Luke Skywalker
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Aston Martin superstructures are glued and Lotus probably others as well .
Welding old to new aluminum is not easy the old has to be scrupulously clean to prevent contamination of the weld .
I would let a pro do it .
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When I did my Healey many years ago I had taught myself to rig ally. Since then one of the cracks (there were 5 variously) resurfaced. If I had to do it again I would seriously consider the bonding adhesives from 3m or SEM. I have used bonding adhesives many times on fiberglass and metals. Over many years use with them have never had a failure.
Bob_Spidell
Yoda
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Somewhat OT, but my dad had a couple of the usual cracks found on the lower flange of the shroud of our BN2 welded-up. I didn't see it done, but the welds were just blobs, not the nice 'stack of dimes' you'd expect from a skilled TIG welder. My guess is they were done by MIG with a spool gun, commonly used for industrial aluminum welding applications (I wouldn't be surprised if they were done with a stick welder, even). Since you're going to grind the welds flat anyway this could be an option (assuming you have a MIG with spool gun capability, of course). I have seen some MIG welds that were all but indistinguishable from TIG.
dougie
Luke Skywalker
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Unfornunately, I've had more front shroud work done then most, the race track is an unforgiving place on aluminum. Luckely though, my panel man
is more artist having built whole new panels for Jaguars and Ferrari's. He gas welded my new front panel to the shroud, a clean substrate is the key.
is more artist having built whole new panels for Jaguars and Ferrari's. He gas welded my new front panel to the shroud, a clean substrate is the key.
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A couple points about using the adhesives. One downside is they are rather expensive compared to welding on carbon steel. But of course if you have to hire an ally welder it might be comparable. The next very important consideration is temperature. These adhesives have to have good warmth. I say warmth because all I mean is not cold metal and not hot,hot. I guess what i’m Saying is when I typically work in my shop (especially) winter I don’t mind a cool shop. But these adhesives don’t like a cool shop. So I will always use heat lamps on the areas to be bonded. But not heat lamp bulbs, they are too hot. And dangerous in that they can easily ruin the work or start a fire. I use the lamps with 250w flood lamp bulbs. Just enough to keep the surfaces warm.
red57
Jedi Knight
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Hi Martec. I'm 5 years in with mine working on it evenings and weekends here and there. It has been a steep learning curve but I am still enjoying the challenges.
I have welded steel for years but never aluminum. I tried oxy/fuel welding first and spent most of a winter practicing but never got to where I would trust my welds on the shroud - too high a percentage cracked during post-weld cooling and I never really got a handle on it so I bought a TIG machine. I spent another winter practicing and reading all I could about TIG welding and finally got to where I decided to go for it.
I'm not going to bash any suppliers but if you need to replace any panels, be prepared to examine them very carefully to see if they will really work. I bought several shroud pieces that, at first glance looked good but ended up not really useable. An example is the piece between the bonnet opening and the top of the grille - the overall shape was good and would have worked great, but the channel shape around the bonnet opening was 3/16" too deep and 1/4" too wide and could not be matched to the existing channel. I ended up searching out NOS body repair pieces over about 3 years. The NOS pieces I found fit perfectly with no odd issues.
Vette does make a good point about cracks - I haven't gotten mine together yet to see how many cracks it develops but I won't be surprised if some show up.
An irony is that I just finished my front shroud last spring and over the last 3 months I've seen 3 for sale within 100 miles for less than $1k - they all looked like they would need some minor repair but nothing at all like mine needed. If I add up the welder, the consumables, the repair pieces I bought, I'm way in the hole but I enjoy the journey and being able to say I did it.
If you do proceed, feel free to pm me. I have lots of pictures of mine step-by-step and the jig I made
.
Dave
I have welded steel for years but never aluminum. I tried oxy/fuel welding first and spent most of a winter practicing but never got to where I would trust my welds on the shroud - too high a percentage cracked during post-weld cooling and I never really got a handle on it so I bought a TIG machine. I spent another winter practicing and reading all I could about TIG welding and finally got to where I decided to go for it.
I'm not going to bash any suppliers but if you need to replace any panels, be prepared to examine them very carefully to see if they will really work. I bought several shroud pieces that, at first glance looked good but ended up not really useable. An example is the piece between the bonnet opening and the top of the grille - the overall shape was good and would have worked great, but the channel shape around the bonnet opening was 3/16" too deep and 1/4" too wide and could not be matched to the existing channel. I ended up searching out NOS body repair pieces over about 3 years. The NOS pieces I found fit perfectly with no odd issues.
Vette does make a good point about cracks - I haven't gotten mine together yet to see how many cracks it develops but I won't be surprised if some show up.
An irony is that I just finished my front shroud last spring and over the last 3 months I've seen 3 for sale within 100 miles for less than $1k - they all looked like they would need some minor repair but nothing at all like mine needed. If I add up the welder, the consumables, the repair pieces I bought, I'm way in the hole but I enjoy the journey and being able to say I did it.
If you do proceed, feel free to pm me. I have lots of pictures of mine step-by-step and the jig I made
. Dave
Randy Forbes
Yoda
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Hmm, smooth hood; I don't know quite what to think about that...
Good job though, on the aluminum work! I bought my TIG long after that work was done on my car, so I can't say "I did it!"
Good job though, on the aluminum work! I bought my TIG long after that work was done on my car, so I can't say "I did it!"
red57
Jedi Knight
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The smooth hood is something I made about 25 years ago.
My first two Healeys were 100s I bought and sold in the early to mid 70's (when they were $500 cars) but I fell in love with the early 'pure design' cars. Then I played with Harleys for 10 years but always wanted another Healey.
Fast forward to the 1986 and I was finally ready to get another Healey but the 100s were too pricey so I settled for my 100-6 from a friend for $2500.
I never liked the hood scoop on the 6 cylinder cars - far as I could tell the only reason for it was so they could shove the radiator forward to get the 6 in. But, in my opinion, the smooth hood/nose of the 100 is what was originally intended (and I think more elegant).
So, I had a local radiator shop make a custom top tank (in a wedge shape as viewed from the side) so that none of the radiator is above the hood opening in the shroud. I had a mangled hood from a 3000 that had hit a deer and this was the source of the doner radiator (top tank destroyed but bottom tank fine) and the hood hinge and latch inner pieces. So I made this hood out of fiberglass bonded to the stock inner panels and some metal framing. At the same time I installed a 100 windshield because I consider that to be the most incredible, signature piece of a Healey and I love wind in the face. So, it's a wanna-be 100 with 4 seats and a 6.
Funny thing is that when I started racing in 1997 the SOVREN rules were very specific, unless you could document a history in the day as a 'modified' car, you had to comply with SCCA PCS (production car specifications) which did not allow any 'modification to factory bodywork'.... Generally meaning things like wide fender flares or other alterations resulting in more speed (Smokey Unick's Camaro with the smaller nose/frontal area comes to mind). So I sweated bullets worrying that they would not allow my hood. Seventeen years I raced with SOVREN and no one ever noticed the hood. The windshield has been a great feature for me because it is so easily removed at the track (I drove to & from the track like the old days - the small Perspex shield is permanently mounted and does not interfere with the 100 shield).
Dave
My first two Healeys were 100s I bought and sold in the early to mid 70's (when they were $500 cars) but I fell in love with the early 'pure design' cars. Then I played with Harleys for 10 years but always wanted another Healey.
Fast forward to the 1986 and I was finally ready to get another Healey but the 100s were too pricey so I settled for my 100-6 from a friend for $2500.
I never liked the hood scoop on the 6 cylinder cars - far as I could tell the only reason for it was so they could shove the radiator forward to get the 6 in. But, in my opinion, the smooth hood/nose of the 100 is what was originally intended (and I think more elegant).
So, I had a local radiator shop make a custom top tank (in a wedge shape as viewed from the side) so that none of the radiator is above the hood opening in the shroud. I had a mangled hood from a 3000 that had hit a deer and this was the source of the doner radiator (top tank destroyed but bottom tank fine) and the hood hinge and latch inner pieces. So I made this hood out of fiberglass bonded to the stock inner panels and some metal framing. At the same time I installed a 100 windshield because I consider that to be the most incredible, signature piece of a Healey and I love wind in the face. So, it's a wanna-be 100 with 4 seats and a 6.
Funny thing is that when I started racing in 1997 the SOVREN rules were very specific, unless you could document a history in the day as a 'modified' car, you had to comply with SCCA PCS (production car specifications) which did not allow any 'modification to factory bodywork'.... Generally meaning things like wide fender flares or other alterations resulting in more speed (Smokey Unick's Camaro with the smaller nose/frontal area comes to mind). So I sweated bullets worrying that they would not allow my hood. Seventeen years I raced with SOVREN and no one ever noticed the hood. The windshield has been a great feature for me because it is so easily removed at the track (I drove to & from the track like the old days - the small Perspex shield is permanently mounted and does not interfere with the 100 shield).
Dave
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Kevin Adair has a smooth hood on his white 1959 3000. It was factory built for a Canadian series (it won every race.) He won his group last year at the Rolex Reunion in Monterey. Carries number the 171.
dougie
Luke Skywalker
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That's the one. I couldn't find a good photo.
With regard to using adhesives, given your experience would you consider using the adhesive bonding process to install a new nose section to the shroud? I’m restoring a BT7 and the nose section is badly damaged. Either I find a replacement shroud or splice in a new/used front nose section. I understand welding is the traditional process, however, with some of the new structural adhesives available today, it would seem a section could be installed using a doubler/patch on the back side that conforms to the shape of the shroud. My biggest concern is not that the joint would fail, but rather cracking of paint and bondo might occur in the area from vibrations. Any thoughts?
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Yes I would consider bonding of a new nose section. Things to consider, the quality of fitment of the joint is of utmost importance. Equally to that is good temperature for the adhesive to cure. I also would use a "bonding strip" behind the joint. I wouldn't consider it any other way. All the Corvettes from at least 1963 thru '82 used bonding strips at their panel joints. I would prepare my panels fitment, then remove the new section and make aluminum strips to bond to the underside of the main body part with the strip sticking out about 1". This would create a flange which the new section would lap against. Bond the strip on first, then after "thorough" curing fit up the new section to bond to the new flange & body. I would set up about 4 flood lamp bulbs (i don't use heat lamp bulbs, to hot.) on stands arrayed around the bonding joint. I don't have a concern for cracking, but any polyester or epoxy compound whether it be paint, bondo or adhesives will shrink as they cure. I believe urethane paints, even though hard to the finish, are pretty flexible and are not the cause of the shrink marks but it is what is under them that is shrinking. That's my opinion anyway. The reason I have had little trouble with shrinking is because my work progresses slowly, (I have been at this as a hobbiest for a long time). Sometimes it is days or weeks between my applications. This has allowed allot of cure time between the steps. I have a friend that put a dog leg panel on the rear fender of his MGA over 30 years ago with the bonding adhesive technology of the time. He still owns the car and has driven it regularly every summer. To this day you can not see that patch panel. I use SEMs bonding adhesives. Only because that is what my paint supplier stocks. 3M is good too. You should use the correct adhesive for the material your bonding. But I have mixed them up and they have all worked, but get the right stuff. These adhesives are a twin tube application and you have to have the twin tube applicator gun. These adhesives are expensive and the applicator gun is even more expensive but you really should use it to "guarantee" the best results. Before I bought a gun I did do some projects by squeezing an appropriate amount of adhesive from each tube onto a pallet then mixing it as you would do bondo. Just getting it out of the tube without the gun is a real bear and a stupid way to do it. So get a gun. I would suggest some practice joints to see if you like it. Good luck.
By the way, if the joint is done well and the adhesive cured correctly, Vibrations will have no effect. This stuff is strong.
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I would like to say considering all that I said in my previous post, that if you are concerned about the quality of the aluminium welding that you might get, then I do consider bonding with adhesives. But if you are absolutely confident that you can get very good aluminium welding then I would weld it. Once quality welding is accomplished there is no more joint, and no more dissimilar materials to ever be concerned about. But I have no concern about the strength of good adhesive bonding it is only about the skill and expertise or even practical ability of getting the joint together "right". But the same concern can be said for welding as well.