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General Motors... Huge News
- Thread starter Sherlock
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[ QUOTE ]
Speaking of surveys - one magazine noted that the
owners of the Honda (Passport,I believe),rated their
vehicles very highly,while owners of the Isuzu Rodeo
rated theirs lower.
These were both the same vehicle - an Isuzu rebadged
as a Honda.
[/ QUOTE ]
Very true, but there is a very reasonable, accurate and important distinction in this -- much of owner satisfaction and reliability reporting relies on the dealer to properly fix any issues. In the case of Honda and Isuzu, Passport owners could only be serviced by Honda dealers, while Trooper owners had to visit Isuzu dealers. Isuzu had one of the worst-trained dealer networks (and still does,) which results in problems not being fixed, made worse, and new problems created.
I know that part of my problem with my Corvettes has been dealer service. I had seven problems, but it took 18 trips to the dealer to fix them -- and two problems still exist, and I simply gave up, because they created more problems.
But I think you'll find that many of the major problems are simply engineered into the vehicles (or not engineered out, as the case might be.) GM is notorious (as is Ford) for engineering-in multiple issues, and not fixing them for decades...These types of problems include: Corvette: rocking seat, fuel sending unit failure (actually a software failure,) column lock failure, insufficient brake cooling. All GM with 3800 V6: intake manifold gasket failure (can hydrolock engine anytime from 15000-100,000 miles.) Many GMs also have insufficient power steering pumps that bog. We all know about the Ford Explorer suspension engineering, but how about Expeditions with heater hoses that run too close to the cylinders, and fail- dropping coolant onto coil packs, shorting them out.
Sure, every manufacturer has these types of issues, but the question is how the corporation and dealers handle them. Import manufacturers, by and large (not always) go to great lengths to make an easy fix for owners affected by the problem, while re-engineering the car ASAP to fix the issue. Domestics, on the other hand, not only rarely try to re-engineer the area of concern (weighing the cost of re-engineering vs. the cost of paying warranty claims for the life of the series production,) but often fail to instruct dealers, or allow dealers to lie to consumers by saying "we've never seen this problem before."
By the way, on two problems with my 2002 Corvette, I had to explain to the local dealer after being told "never heard of that problem -- it's isolated to your car," that a)the same problem happened on my '99, and b)here's a list of 150 other people from the Corvetteforum complaining of the same issue and similar treatment.
That's how you kill a car company. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Speaking of surveys - one magazine noted that the
owners of the Honda (Passport,I believe),rated their
vehicles very highly,while owners of the Isuzu Rodeo
rated theirs lower.
These were both the same vehicle - an Isuzu rebadged
as a Honda.
[/ QUOTE ]
Very true, but there is a very reasonable, accurate and important distinction in this -- much of owner satisfaction and reliability reporting relies on the dealer to properly fix any issues. In the case of Honda and Isuzu, Passport owners could only be serviced by Honda dealers, while Trooper owners had to visit Isuzu dealers. Isuzu had one of the worst-trained dealer networks (and still does,) which results in problems not being fixed, made worse, and new problems created.
I know that part of my problem with my Corvettes has been dealer service. I had seven problems, but it took 18 trips to the dealer to fix them -- and two problems still exist, and I simply gave up, because they created more problems.
But I think you'll find that many of the major problems are simply engineered into the vehicles (or not engineered out, as the case might be.) GM is notorious (as is Ford) for engineering-in multiple issues, and not fixing them for decades...These types of problems include: Corvette: rocking seat, fuel sending unit failure (actually a software failure,) column lock failure, insufficient brake cooling. All GM with 3800 V6: intake manifold gasket failure (can hydrolock engine anytime from 15000-100,000 miles.) Many GMs also have insufficient power steering pumps that bog. We all know about the Ford Explorer suspension engineering, but how about Expeditions with heater hoses that run too close to the cylinders, and fail- dropping coolant onto coil packs, shorting them out.
Sure, every manufacturer has these types of issues, but the question is how the corporation and dealers handle them. Import manufacturers, by and large (not always) go to great lengths to make an easy fix for owners affected by the problem, while re-engineering the car ASAP to fix the issue. Domestics, on the other hand, not only rarely try to re-engineer the area of concern (weighing the cost of re-engineering vs. the cost of paying warranty claims for the life of the series production,) but often fail to instruct dealers, or allow dealers to lie to consumers by saying "we've never seen this problem before."
By the way, on two problems with my 2002 Corvette, I had to explain to the local dealer after being told "never heard of that problem -- it's isolated to your car," that a)the same problem happened on my '99, and b)here's a list of 150 other people from the Corvetteforum complaining of the same issue and similar treatment.
That's how you kill a car company. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
TRdynamo
Freshman Member
Offline
Is it possible besides the fact of poor dealers, that the vehicles themselves have poor quality control? That most of todays new vehicles are so complicated that its hard to keep every part within the same reliable range? That thought just came to mind when reading all this info, maybe the carmakers just cant make all their parts work together. And to compound that is poor design and poor managment.
swift6
Yoda
Offline
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But I think you'll find that many of the major problems are simply engineered into the vehicles (or not engineered out, as the case might be.)
[/ QUOTE ]
Speaking of engineering in a problem. Ask a VW Tech how difficult it is to replace the starter on an 8 cylinder Toureg. The body and drivetrain have to be seperated on a special jig. Labor estimates run more than 24 hours. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif Ouch!
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cheers.gif
[ QUOTE ]
But I think you'll find that many of the major problems are simply engineered into the vehicles (or not engineered out, as the case might be.)
[/ QUOTE ]
Speaking of engineering in a problem. Ask a VW Tech how difficult it is to replace the starter on an 8 cylinder Toureg. The body and drivetrain have to be seperated on a special jig. Labor estimates run more than 24 hours. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif Ouch!
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cheers.gif
mailbox
Jedi Knight
Offline
I have 2 thoughts about this posting, for what it's worth.
1. In the past 15 years, I have owned several foreign cars and 2 domestic made trucks.
A. A Mazda 323 that cracked it's head with less than 50,000 miles.
B. A Nissan Maxima that lunched it's transmission at 60,000 and wore out $100 tires every year or so due to no front end alignment adjustments.
C. A Mercury Villager (rebadged Nissan Quest) that lost oil pressure, broke most of the exhaust manifold studs off, and suffered black death.(Ford compressor)
D. A Nissan Quest with no current problems.
E. 2 Chevy trucks, one of which I replaced the engine in simply because it was worn out. The other has had no problems.
2. The Maxima had the transmission burn out at 60,000 miles. It cost $1500 to have rebuilt and took 3 weeks to order parts for. He said if it had been a domestic car, it would have cost about $400 and taken 1 day.
Hey, it's something to consider. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
1. In the past 15 years, I have owned several foreign cars and 2 domestic made trucks.
A. A Mazda 323 that cracked it's head with less than 50,000 miles.
B. A Nissan Maxima that lunched it's transmission at 60,000 and wore out $100 tires every year or so due to no front end alignment adjustments.
C. A Mercury Villager (rebadged Nissan Quest) that lost oil pressure, broke most of the exhaust manifold studs off, and suffered black death.(Ford compressor)
D. A Nissan Quest with no current problems.
E. 2 Chevy trucks, one of which I replaced the engine in simply because it was worn out. The other has had no problems.
2. The Maxima had the transmission burn out at 60,000 miles. It cost $1500 to have rebuilt and took 3 weeks to order parts for. He said if it had been a domestic car, it would have cost about $400 and taken 1 day.
Hey, it's something to consider. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Offline
Weighed this a while before deciding to post my tuppence worth:
I worked in a small car house in western PA in the mid to late seventies. A domestic line along with Alfa and Lotus. The regional sales fella with the domestic company would kvretch and moan over the Japanese having 12% of the "market." One time he was on about it and I'd heard enuff... "Come with me." Into the shop and under the rack where his "product" was getting a service. "Look up. Look at the suspension on that. Now come here and look at this Alfa... and this Lotus... The suspension on that lump of yours is straight out of 1930. Only thing you change is the bodypanels and interiors. If you want to increase sales you first have to increase your level of ENGINEERING. Uless that occurs, you may find personal benefit in learning Kanji!"
Never heard about THAT crap again from him. 'course nothing changed regarding domestic car manufacture either, until just recently. Much too late. Blind/dumb/stupid... *mumble-mumble-mumble*
I worked in a small car house in western PA in the mid to late seventies. A domestic line along with Alfa and Lotus. The regional sales fella with the domestic company would kvretch and moan over the Japanese having 12% of the "market." One time he was on about it and I'd heard enuff... "Come with me." Into the shop and under the rack where his "product" was getting a service. "Look up. Look at the suspension on that. Now come here and look at this Alfa... and this Lotus... The suspension on that lump of yours is straight out of 1930. Only thing you change is the bodypanels and interiors. If you want to increase sales you first have to increase your level of ENGINEERING. Uless that occurs, you may find personal benefit in learning Kanji!"
Never heard about THAT crap again from him. 'course nothing changed regarding domestic car manufacture either, until just recently. Much too late. Blind/dumb/stupid... *mumble-mumble-mumble*
[ QUOTE ]
I have 2 thoughts about this posting, for what it's worth.
1. In the past 15 years, I have owned several foreign cars and 2 domestic made trucks.
A. A Mazda 323 that cracked it's head with less than 50,000 miles.
B. A Nissan Maxima that lunched it's transmission at 60,000 and wore out $100 tires every year or so due to no front end alignment adjustments.
C. A Mercury Villager (rebadged Nissan Quest) that lost oil pressure, broke most of the exhaust manifold studs off, and suffered black death.(Ford compressor)
D. A Nissan Quest with no current problems.
E. 2 Chevy trucks, one of which I replaced the engine in simply because it was worn out. The other has had no problems.
2. The Maxima had the transmission burn out at 60,000 miles. It cost $1500 to have rebuilt and took 3 weeks to order parts for. He said if it had been a domestic car, it would have cost about $400 and taken 1 day.
Hey, it's something to consider. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
[/ QUOTE ]
Certainly not surprising. Nissan and Mazda have both had very bad reliability and quality overall. Now that's not to say they never produce good cars -- my uncle had a Sentra that went 300K+ miles before the salty Wyoming roads completely rusted the suspension mounting points.
Interestingly, while Infinity has good reliability/quality, Nissan does not. The 350Z has had major problems with alignment and tire wear. Interior parts quality has been dismal.
VW? Should mean "Very Worst." The only ways to spend more to get less reliability are in Lamborghini and Land Rover.
I have 2 thoughts about this posting, for what it's worth.
1. In the past 15 years, I have owned several foreign cars and 2 domestic made trucks.
A. A Mazda 323 that cracked it's head with less than 50,000 miles.
B. A Nissan Maxima that lunched it's transmission at 60,000 and wore out $100 tires every year or so due to no front end alignment adjustments.
C. A Mercury Villager (rebadged Nissan Quest) that lost oil pressure, broke most of the exhaust manifold studs off, and suffered black death.(Ford compressor)
D. A Nissan Quest with no current problems.
E. 2 Chevy trucks, one of which I replaced the engine in simply because it was worn out. The other has had no problems.
2. The Maxima had the transmission burn out at 60,000 miles. It cost $1500 to have rebuilt and took 3 weeks to order parts for. He said if it had been a domestic car, it would have cost about $400 and taken 1 day.
Hey, it's something to consider. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
[/ QUOTE ]
Certainly not surprising. Nissan and Mazda have both had very bad reliability and quality overall. Now that's not to say they never produce good cars -- my uncle had a Sentra that went 300K+ miles before the salty Wyoming roads completely rusted the suspension mounting points.
Interestingly, while Infinity has good reliability/quality, Nissan does not. The 350Z has had major problems with alignment and tire wear. Interior parts quality has been dismal.
VW? Should mean "Very Worst." The only ways to spend more to get less reliability are in Lamborghini and Land Rover.
Offline
Sam Wrote:
"VW? Should mean "Very Worst." The only ways to spend more to get less reliability are in Lamborghini and Land Rover."
You mean to say I shouldn't sign up for th' Paris-Dakar with a new Land Rover?!?!
What's th' world comin' to. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/devilgrin.gif
"VW? Should mean "Very Worst." The only ways to spend more to get less reliability are in Lamborghini and Land Rover."
You mean to say I shouldn't sign up for th' Paris-Dakar with a new Land Rover?!?!
What's th' world comin' to. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/devilgrin.gif
RomanH
Jedi Knight
Offline
[ QUOTE ]
The only thing wrong with VWs is the owners
[/ QUOTE ]
I am a bit offended by that remark! I have had a VW Passat for the last six years and have always maintained it very well, just as I do with all of my cars.
However it has some electrical gremlins in it that 4 different dealers have not been able to solve!
I wouldn't say it's the Very Worst car I have ever owned but it certainly is not the best. After my experience with it I doubt I would have another.
The only thing wrong with VWs is the owners
[/ QUOTE ]
I am a bit offended by that remark! I have had a VW Passat for the last six years and have always maintained it very well, just as I do with all of my cars.
However it has some electrical gremlins in it that 4 different dealers have not been able to solve!
I wouldn't say it's the Very Worst car I have ever owned but it certainly is not the best. After my experience with it I doubt I would have another.
coldplugs
Darth Vader
Offline
Re: General Motors... and Ford next?
I read today that Ford will be announcing large cuts (app 30,000) and some closings by 23 January.
The GM-Delphi bankruptcy issue (with GM taking over pension responsibility if Delphi goes over the side) will rise again on 15 January.
Also, that GM is reducing prices (!) About $2K comes off the top of each GM car sold just for pensions. How much profit is left?
It's going to be an eventful year in Detroit.
I read today that Ford will be announcing large cuts (app 30,000) and some closings by 23 January.
The GM-Delphi bankruptcy issue (with GM taking over pension responsibility if Delphi goes over the side) will rise again on 15 January.
Also, that GM is reducing prices (!) About $2K comes off the top of each GM car sold just for pensions. How much profit is left?
It's going to be an eventful year in Detroit.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The only thing wrong with VWs is the owners
[/ QUOTE ]
I am a bit offended by that remark! I have had a VW Passat for the last six years and have always maintained it very well, just as I do with all of my cars.
[/ QUOTE ]
Some don't maintain them at all...
[ QUOTE ]
However it has some electrical gremlins in it that 4 different dealers have not been able to solve!
[/ QUOTE ]
Problem with the brakelights, signals, and taillights??
SteveL
[ QUOTE ]
The only thing wrong with VWs is the owners
[/ QUOTE ]
I am a bit offended by that remark! I have had a VW Passat for the last six years and have always maintained it very well, just as I do with all of my cars.
[/ QUOTE ]
Some don't maintain them at all...
[ QUOTE ]
However it has some electrical gremlins in it that 4 different dealers have not been able to solve!
[/ QUOTE ]
Problem with the brakelights, signals, and taillights??
SteveL
RomanH
Jedi Knight
Offline
Hi Steve,
Not the brakelights. It did have problems with the turn signals that a new flasher unit took care of.
The really annoying problem I have is with the windows and door locks. The door locks will automatically re-lock themselves after I press the door switch to open them! It will sometimes do that two or three times in a row!
The driver's side window also has a mind of it's own. When I have the window opened part way and want to open it more it will instead roll up. Also if I want to crack it open a bit it will roll down completely even though I did not depress the switch far enough to engage the express roll down.
Also have had problems with the steering wheel mounted controls which made the cruise control dangerous to use. With cruise engaged tapping on the accel button would cause WOT condition! Have managed to get that straightened out.
Finally the radio changes volume settings when tuning into another station but thats minor. Its the windows and locks that are driving me mad! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif
Roman
Not the brakelights. It did have problems with the turn signals that a new flasher unit took care of.
The really annoying problem I have is with the windows and door locks. The door locks will automatically re-lock themselves after I press the door switch to open them! It will sometimes do that two or three times in a row!
The driver's side window also has a mind of it's own. When I have the window opened part way and want to open it more it will instead roll up. Also if I want to crack it open a bit it will roll down completely even though I did not depress the switch far enough to engage the express roll down.
Also have had problems with the steering wheel mounted controls which made the cruise control dangerous to use. With cruise engaged tapping on the accel button would cause WOT condition! Have managed to get that straightened out.
Finally the radio changes volume settings when tuning into another station but thats minor. Its the windows and locks that are driving me mad! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif
Roman
Offline
As manufacturers pile maore and more gadgetry into these things the reliability factor goes lower. I'm still trying to figure out why one NEEDS 'automatic doorlocks', or a DVD player... We already have to contend with ECM's, engine management and all the electronic "stuff" THAT entails. Camera systems to keep Muffy from backin' over li'l Skipper on his motorised trike. Transmissions wot shift THEMSELVES... Now we're seeing "drive by wire."
Lights, wipers, a heater blower. Power windows only if there's not enough cockpit room to work a CRANK. After that it's just plain WRONG. Radios are "portable" devices. If it needs electrons to work, it's usually too complex to be in a car. Cost of manufacture, replacement, labour go up. BAH!
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/devilgrin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/jester.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hammer.gif
...I'm just in a bad mood.
Lights, wipers, a heater blower. Power windows only if there's not enough cockpit room to work a CRANK. After that it's just plain WRONG. Radios are "portable" devices. If it needs electrons to work, it's usually too complex to be in a car. Cost of manufacture, replacement, labour go up. BAH!
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/devilgrin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/jester.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hammer.gif
...I'm just in a bad mood.
D
Deleted member 3577
Guest
Guest
Offline
I had one GM product that was a rolling monument to perversity.
I could spew reams of venomous bile.
I've been trying to bankrupt them for years by projecting my negative psychic energy.
Their continued existence baffles me
I could spew reams of venomous bile.
I've been trying to bankrupt them for years by projecting my negative psychic energy.
Their continued existence baffles me
Interesting thread, couple of observations. I don’t know that car are too complicated and that causing reliability problems. After all, Boeing builds aircraft that are way
more complicated than cars and you don’t hear of repeated trips by airlines back to the factory to fix the planes they bought. I think much of the engineering problems
come from the rush from design to production, cutting the development cycle as much as possible to get the product out the door. Which is a function of focusing in the next quarter’s financial reports, as pointed out in an earlier post.
I’ve also noticed in my own organization that no one really get familiar with the various quality control programs. Every time there’s turnover in the management ranks the new person has their own favorite method of implementing the current one, or even prefers another methodology starting the department or team efforts over again from scratch.
Which of course subtracts from the effort of doing what we're here for to begin with.
more complicated than cars and you don’t hear of repeated trips by airlines back to the factory to fix the planes they bought. I think much of the engineering problems
come from the rush from design to production, cutting the development cycle as much as possible to get the product out the door. Which is a function of focusing in the next quarter’s financial reports, as pointed out in an earlier post.
I’ve also noticed in my own organization that no one really get familiar with the various quality control programs. Every time there’s turnover in the management ranks the new person has their own favorite method of implementing the current one, or even prefers another methodology starting the department or team efforts over again from scratch.
Which of course subtracts from the effort of doing what we're here for to begin with.