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front end wobble / spare wheel

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NutmegCT

NutmegCT

Great Pumpkin
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All sorts of interesting things pop up on these wonderful cars. I had mentioned earlier there is a front end wobble when I hit 45mph, which then calms down when I go over 55mph.

I got my new tires (Kumho 758), and found my front right wheel is bent. Figured the bent wheel was causing the wobble.

So ... I moved my spare wheel from the under-boot stowage and replaced the bent wheel. As I drove out the driveway, I noticed a slight pull to the right, but it disappeared after about 50 feet. Took a test drive - and the front end wobble is exactly the same.

Decided to put the new Kumho wheel back on, and when I pulled off the spare wheel, I discovered a bright shiny spot on the upper left corner of the brake housing. And then noticed a few shiny scuffs inside the spare wheel. See pic. Note the two scuffs just outside the ring of holes, "at 10am and 1pm". That was the brief "pull to the right" I felt when I first drove out.

Wonder why the spare wheel would damage the brake housing? That spare wheel has a Pirelli Stelvio 5.90x15. Not exactly a new tire. Can't find any ID info on the old wheel itself. It fits just fine in the spare compartment.

So the front end wobble continues, as the spare wheel mystery begins.

Tom
 
Hmmm... Doesn't look like a TR3A wheel to me. The big holes should be in three groups of 4 I think, not evenly spaced all around. Also, I don't recognize that hole at 1:00.

As for the wobble... I would be tempted to swap the wheels front-to-rear and see if it is still present. The rear is more tolerant of out-of-balance, etc so if the problem is a wheel or tire it may go away or at least feel different.
 
Geo Hahn said:
Hmmm... Doesn't look like a TR3A wheel to me. The big holes should be in three groups of 4 I think, not evenly spaced all around. Also, I don't recognize that hole at 1:00.
Click to expand...
Could the wheel be from an MGA or similar BMC product? 15", bolt pattern (PCD) is the same, I think, and the extra hole is -- when the wheel is installed correctly -- for access to the Lockheed-style cam adjusters for the drum brake shoes.
 
Tom,

Perhaps the wheel is being stressed out of it's straightness alignment, causing it to act bent or a non concentric runout. This may come from being bent over something when you install it.

How about spinning the wheel with the car jacked up and the wheel hanging free? How does it look then?
 
Paul - spinning the wheel on the car shows a bit "out of true" when measured by a stationary object just touching the wheel, same for the tire. Barely an eighth of an inch. Can't really spin the wheel at "45mph" to duplicate the front end wobble however. Note the wobble didn't change when I switched wheels and drove.

Bushings actually all look fresh; I've also greased all the zerks. Don't know how to check tie rods, etc. ... so any suggestions will be greatly appreciated. Is there a "dummies' guide to alignment checking?" around somewhere?

Being a retired teacher with a "garage" just barely larger than the car, I sure feel I'm learning a *lot* about mechanicals!

Tom
 
'Barely an eighth of an inch' isn't unusual (in my experience) when measured at the tire.

Are you doing the road tests over the same stretch of road each time? Some (perhaps many) roads can induce vibration at particular speeds. You might not notice them in other cars (especially heavy, modern cars) but they can be quite pronounced in a TR.

Would be worth trying several roads to confirm the problem if you haven't already done so.

A search of the archives will reveal some homemade alignment methods. Incorrect toe-in will cause some problems but probably not the 'wobble' you describe.
 
George - thanks for confirming. I figured that 1/8 inch play wasn't likely a major concern. Also been thinking that alignment issues wouldn't cause the 45-55mph wobble.

I've had the wobble since I got the car back in February. All types of roads. It's not just felt "through the steering wheel" - you can actually see the front of the car wobble when it hits that magic 45mph mark.

I'm going to switch front to back wheels today, and try the road test again. I had thought for sure that since the wobble occurred on my old tires, getting the new Kumhos, and balancing the wheels, would eliminate the problem. But when the wobble continued even using that old Pirelli spare tire with spare wheel, I wondered if there was more to worry about than a simple "out of balance" or "out of true".

Tom
 
NutmegCT said:
...Don't know how to check tie rods, etc. ...
Click to expand...

A start would be to lie under the front end (with the wheels on the ground) and examine the various bits of the steering whilst someone works the steering wheel side to side just beyond the limits of its play.

You're looking for connections (tie rod ends (4), silentbloc fittings (2) etc where there is slop (i.e. one part moves more than the part attached to it).

If something is really worn or disintegrated you may be able to grab both sides of the connection and feel the slop.
 
If that wheel has been rubbing, the wheel nuts may have been loose. Or maybe the wheel bearings were loose. I replaced my wheel bearings and about 1000 miles later, both front wheels were loose. With the tires on the ground, hunch down and push/pull on the top of each front tire. You will feel the looseness if the bearings are loose. What happened is that I thought that I had fully seated the inner race of the new bearings all the way to the shoulder (stop), but obviously, I hadn't and 1000 miles later the bearings were now seated against the shoulder and therefore these was slop between the tapered rollers and the outer race. It was a 10 minute job to tighten the big nut again to the correct degree.
 
Tom,

as Don said the wheel bearings may be worn or the nuts loose. With the front of the car jacked up and tire(s) off the ground grab hold of the tire at the 12 O'Clock and 6 O'Clock postion and and push in and pull out. Any in and out clunking or play there and the bearing nut is loose or the bearings are worn out. If you try this at the 3 and 9 position it's less noticable because of the free movement in the front end. You may just have some old tired steel wheels just flexing with their age too. Pretty rusty lookin' inner wheel hub there in the pic with just a thought not a known fact.
 
Just to clarify - that picture is the *spare* wheel/tire. I only had it on the hub for about 15 minutes to see if the wobble disappeared; that's when the rubbing/scuffing occured. There's no friction or rubbing using the "permanent" wheels.

I've done the 12 and 6pm rocking - pushing - pulling test; there's no play or clunking at all.

Also, I just switched the front and the back tires on the right side (right front with the new Kumho is the bent wheel). No change with the old rear right wheel on the front and the bent wheel on the rear.

I did notice the wobble definitely starts at 45mph and is felt *through the steering column/wheel* (not the entire front end as I said earlier).

Altho' I don't feel I can safely drive it on highways with the wobble, I have to say I'm really happy with the engine and carb work and adjustments. Runs *very* well, to my untrained ear at least.

Harry - do you know a reliable Triumph mechanic in CT? Or would you feel up to giving mine a test drive if I can make it out your way? Maybe you can feel the wobble and make an experienced diagnosis?

Thanks guys.
Tom
 
Tom,

Just some advice. I would clean that wheel of all of the crud on the back and take it to a tire shop to see if is in balance after a good wash down. Then try it again. Just a basic approach tip.
 
Tie rod ball joints can be tested by blocking the opposite tire from moving and with hands at 3 o'clock 6, and some muscle, rock the wheel back and forth. If there is slop in the steering linkage, it will become readily apparent.

The 12 and 6 o'clock test without removing the spring only tests for worn or improperly adjusted wheel bearings. The only easy way to check for a worn suspension components is to remove (or relieve) the spring. Once done, the 12 and 6 o'clock test will allow you to check the trunnon and upper ball joint for wear. You will also be able to move the suspension through it's range to check the bushes.

Some just shotgun the problem and replace all suspension components....
 
NutmegCT said:
Wonder why the spare wheel would damage the brake housing?
Click to expand...
Looks like an early MGA wheel to me. Same bolt pattern, evenly spaced holes ... will fit a TR with drum brakes but not discs.

In any case, certainly from a different car.
 
OK - just raised the front end. Grasped top/bottom of the tire, push/pull, no play.

Grasped tire 3 and 9pm, push/pull, no play in steering.

No scraping sound when wheel is turned.

But I'm thinking ... as tire shop only had two Kumhos, I had those put on the front wheels and balanced. Still have the old tires on the rear. Maybe I should just put all this diagnosis on hold 'til I can get the new Kumhos on the rear wheels.

Can vibration at speed, felt through the steering wheel, be caused by poor balance/bent condition of *rear* wheels?

Tom
 
It is probably best to wait until you have the same tires all the way round and see how it goes. If possible, try and have the front tires balanced dynamically on the car. If they balance, then you have a suspension/steering problem.


The attached article discusses problems that can occur due to improperly balanced tires, and how to correct them.



tire balancing
 
Brosky said:
Tom,

Just some advice. I would clean that wheel of all of the crud on the back and take it to a tire shop to see if is in balance after a good wash down. Then try it again. Just a basic approach tip.
Click to expand...


Tom,

Try what Paul suggests with both the spare and the original wheel you think is causing the wobble. Maybe it got bent when they mounted the new tires.

Manual says,
(a) wheel wobble

1. unbalanced wheels and tyres
2. slack steering connections (tie rods, etc.)
3. incorrect steering geometry (alignment)
4. excessive play in steering gear
5. broken or weak front springs
6. worn hub bearings

No sense trying to drive it here with a know problem PM your location and when your available and maybe I can work out a date for an inspection. This Sunday and the wifes parents fiftieth wedding anniversary next weekend I don't think I can ditch.
 
Dang Harry- You just described Crypty to a tee!

2. slack steering connections (tie rods, etc.)
3. incorrect steering geometry (alignment)
4. excessive play in steering gear
5. broken or weak front springs
6. worn hub bearings

It seems Crypty will never be off blocks but
his rear suspension is Bentley Blue perfect.

d
 
How are your steering column coupler and ujoint?

What shape and material are your steering rack mounts in?
 
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