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Framectomy - what would you do?

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Randy Harris

Randy Harris

Jedi Warrior
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Greetings and Happy Holidays to all my old buddies here on The Forum. Its been quite a while since I last posted here. Life, and many other distractions have taken me in other directions. I do pop in to lurk, but rarely contribute. Anyway, here's my issue:

My '68 BJ8 (a stunning car) has an issue that has me a little distressed. I would really appreciate any feedback you can provide.

My car, in my garage for 15 years and fully restored 12 years ago, has been essentially in storage for the past year, driven only enough to keep it happy. Last week, in preparation for a Springtime sale, I had my mechanic give her a thorough going over. The car received all excellent grades - except for the frame. Some time in the car's past life, maybe 30 years ago or more, the car was in a rear ender. I didn't know this when I bought the car. In those days replacement frames were not available so the owner had the replacement frame parts hand-crafted and grafted on to the rear end of the car. Nearly every frame bit from the X brace back is essentially hand made but aesthetically wrong! An expert could pick it out quickly. It is very strong and all critical geometry is perfect. It works as intended but if a true Healey expert were to inspect the car it would jump out and bite very quickly. I now want to move the car on to a good home but am reluctant to sell it with a somewhat partial non-original frame as the rest of the car is so excellent. It presents and drives beautifully and I know I would be leaving serious money on the table if I sold it as is.

Options: It was suggested that I could buy either a part or whole donor frame and have it professionally grafted on (not sure this is possible). It was suggested that I could buy an entirely new frame (Jule for instance) and have it installed, essentially disassembling the car and restoring the car again (not cost efficient). It was suggested I sell it as is and send it overseas where insistence on originality is less emphasized.

Ok, here's the question(s)
1. What would you do to maximize and preserve the value of an otherwise truly stunning BJ8?
2. Does anyone know where I might be able to obtain a BJ8 frame, or at least the back half of one?
3. Does anyone have the name of a great craftsman who could do this partial frame transplant?

All comments are appreciated and welcome.

All the best,

Randy Harris
 
When I worked at Austin-Healey West in San Francisco (on Shipley Street, one of the "alleys" between Folsom & Harrison/between 3rd & 4th sts) we sectioned a couple of Healeys; seems everybody was smashing BJ8s! Of course, back in the 70s, most were still put into service as daily drivers.

We'd obtain a wreck with a good front section, and mate it with one with a good back half. Ray found rectangular tubing that was a slip-fit into the chassis rails, and would extend a good 2' into the front and rear halves. the tubes were rosette welded in strategic places, and the chassis' welded at the joining point. With all welds ground down and smoothed over, it was undetectable from an original chassis.

So yes, the frame can be sectioned, and be more rigid across the open cockpit area in the process. A good portion of the car would have to be taken apart, but not to the extent of a total restoration. And, a suitable donor would need to be sourced.

Now you have to ask yourself if the difference in the price is worth the effort, particularly if your plan is to sell it in a very few months__and they'll come quickly!

Providing the car drives straight and true, my recommendation would be to list it (for sale), and describe it honestly, as is. If it turns out that the market THEN justifies the expense and effort, you'll have your answer without any second-guessing.

Good luck with the sale, either way.
 
Thanks Randy for the quick response.

I believe the fix that I have now is the same one you did, except the welds are pretty ugly and not ground down. That final attention to detail is the art of body and frame work and in those days everyone thought they could do that kind of work in their home garage. The first key to recognizing the wrongness of my frame is that there is no beading running down the center of the square tube sections of the grafted parts. The tubing is the same dimension as original and the welds, while ugly as sin, are very strong. Dog legs are fine and cross brace is good, everything back of that stinks.

You are right about the cost/benefit analysis of doing a major correct re-fit. I have a ton of money in this car already and there's no guarantee I would recoup the investment. But the anal retentive in me wants to sell a pristine near-perfect BJ8. In all other respects it's gorgeous. Anyone you know, southern or northern california can do this kind of work?
Thanks
Randy
 
I agree with Randy. I sold my 100-6 which needed repair to the x bar below the radiator. I was able to do the repair with thick metal, instead of replacing the entire piece with a new x bar. It did not either add or retract from the sale. I explained why it was done and the strength in the part after repair and it was accepted.
Jerry
 
Theres an old addage "if it aint broke dont fix it " If the car is structurally sound and most of all safe . Leave it be sell the car but be upfront and honest with the prospective buyer , make them aware of the repairs and sell the car as a "sound driver " The work involved in making the car look better underneath will not be re-couped in the sale . JMHO
 
I would sell it as it is. As a buyer of a Healey this would not really bother me at all especially as the way you describe the repairs they might be better than the original. Lots of frames have been patched up.

Do cars with Jules frames sell for a discount in the US?
 
Here's a link to my Photobucket site with several pics of the frame. I'm sure I could make it much more presentable by grinding down the horrendous weld blobs. But it will always be wrong.

So, do you guys really think that a prospective buyer wouldn't be bothered by a frame that has been cobbled together like this one? I honestly don't know, that's why I ask.
Personally, I hate cars with stories and would be skeptical, even if I was convinced that the frame is sound.
Nothing would make me happier than to be able to sell the car for a fair price without undergoing another huge project.

https://s334.photobucket.com/user/Cooperguitars/library/Big Healey frame pics
 
I think you should assume the car would not sell for as much given the frame repairs--by how much, I don't know. But the other end of the equation is the cost to repair. I'd price out the parts and get a quote from a good shop to disassemble, cut, weld, reassemble, and paint. I would bet that the price to put it right would be more than the discount on the price of the car. But you are right--you'll have a hard time selling it to a purist.
 
After doing Healeys for 30 years I have seen many of these types of repairs. This is called car grafting and in Ontario it is against the law because it is an unsafe practice.
any competent regulated technician would never approach this project. In Ontario if it is found that a car has been grafted it can only be issued a salvage title which pretty much makes the car worthless. In our province it is mandatory that grafting information must be revealed to the buyer. If car is sold and later found out to be grafted, the seller would be in severe trouble and held financially responsible.This is how it works where I live and the laws that regulate my business. It may be different where you live. Bad looking welds are usually bad wells.
I admire Mr. Harris for being honest and forthcoming with this issue and suggest he provide full disclosure to the new buyer. Buyer beware rule would then apply.
Cars with Jule chassis sell well often 15% more than Healeys with original chassis in the same restored cars.
Marty
 
I would agree with just about everyone's opinion in the above posts, The only thing I may add is....TAKE YOUR TIME when you sell the car. Never be in too much of a hurry as there is always someone out there that will fork over the money as long as you are realistic! Personally, if I where you I would spend a little time cleaning up some of those welds.....but there is a down side to that as well because as you are grinding off some that sloppy welding you just might expose some areas that where not welded properly and expose some gaps here and there. In that case you will have to pre heat the areas before re welding. In any case, there is no reason you shouldn't receive a fair price. however, don't expect top dollar as most British car buyers are very savvy and know full well that when it comes time for "them" to resell they will face the same issue as you are now. As long as you are honest and point out the frame issues then it is up to the discretion of the buyer. Best of luck!
 
I met a guy from NJ that did a Jule frame and has nothing but trouble nothing fit right and had a lot of issues with them and they blu him off
 
It is a rare car that has survived this long without an accident. So, having repairs are almost expected by buyers. The issue I see is that it was done with little care for cosmetics. Perhaps a compromise, as Dram noted, would be to clean up the job that was done.
 
Last edited:
Healey_Z said:
It is a rare car that has survived this long without an accident. So, having repairs are almost expected by buyers. The issue I see is that it was done with little care for cosmetics. Perhaps a compromise, as Dram noted, would be to clean up the job that was done.
Click to expand...

Yes, there was little concern for cosmetics. I did have the car checked very carefully by a well known Healey expert and again when I had the resto work done. It was deemed safe - a very stout and solid frame, but obviously a cosmetic mess. I've owned the car for 15+ years, driven it aggressively and she runs and drives as well as any Big Healey I have driven.
 
What is the purpose of this comment? Do you feel a need to slam my product and company because I point out that a common practice is not ethical , safe and illegal in some areas?
If someone had an issue we would address it. Please email me off line the name of this person.
 
Good advice here. Fortunately I am not in a hurry to sell the car nor am I under any pressure to do so. I currently have 5 cars and it seems like a good time to thin the herd. But I don't have to sell, so I can take my time and find the right buyer. I was well into an expensive restoration when I was informed of the frame issue. At the time I was advised to sell it and start over with a different car. But since I had already sunk great sums of money into it, I just figured I would drive it and be buried in it. Funny how things change over time. Now I'm at a point where I'm trying to de-content my life and live a little simpler. Selling one of my cars seems perfectly reasonable now and the old frame issue rears its ugly head, a problem that I had all but forgotten.
 
I wonder just how much of a project it would be to replace my entire frame with a Jule? Over the years I've heard good things about them and if they can actually prop up values perhaps it is a worthwhile investment. The trick is finding the right people to do the work - those skills are way out of my wheelhouse.
 
Randy Harris said:
I wonder just how much of a project it would be to replace my entire frame with a Jule? Over the years I've heard good things about them and if they can actually prop up values perhaps it is a worthwhile investment. The trick is finding the right people to do the work - those skills are way out of my wheelhouse.
Click to expand...

Just so you know, Kilmartin makes a frame that is alleged to be both better than original and nearly identical in appearance (I have no experience with either the Kilmartin frame or the Jule--just providing the info).
 
I don't know how you disclose this without scaring someone off but its the right thing to do. There is no way to sugar coat it , it needs the chassis replaced ! Why bother? Be as honest as you can and let the market decide what its worth. What is it worth ? That's the question.
 
I'm all about being transparent. It would be foolish to try to sell the car without full disclosure. The question is whether it makes sense to replace the frame or sell as is.

The car is a solid #2. All matching numbers Healey. From 5 feet away it looks like a show car and in fact it has shown very well on the grass over many years - but not Concours. The interior is all custom Heritage. The body is near-perfect and the paint is great. Other than a few bits that could use re-chroming, the car needs nothing. So if I were to separate it from its frame it wouldn't need much more than a few fasteners, new fluids, maybe a few hoses, touch ups here and there. The question is then, how much work is there really involved in removing the car from the frame and then replacing it so that it all goes back together as original? If that was a $10k job, it would be worth it to me to do this. If it's a $20k job, probably not a great plan. Unfortunately I injured my back 10 years ago and cannot do much of the work myself. I appreciate all of your comments, they have been most helpful.
 
Randy Harris said:
I wonder just how much of a project it would be to replace my entire frame with a Jule? Over the years I've heard good things about them and if they can actually prop up values perhaps it is a worthwhile investment. The trick is finding the right people to do the work - those skills are way out of my wheelhouse.
Click to expand...

Randy, If you think your upside down on the car now.....just wait to see what it would cost to have someone put a new frame under the car! Not to mention the cost of the new frame and related other little things you will pay for. Even if you did shell out a ton of money for all this work.....add all the money you currently have in the car and then add the quote for a new frame AND labor. Then go to eBay and see what prices Healeys in nice condition have sold for! My best advice is to run a test auction and a few adds in a major publication and see what buyers are out there BEFORE you attempt to dump another ton of money in the car. Remember, it's a Healey....it will sell!
 
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