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Post-War Other Finally Herald door misalignment pictures!!!

triherald

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Hey guys, if you missed my first post... I have this triumph herald that is in pretty good body shape, except the driver side door is misaligned.. I have tried everything that I know to get it back but it just won't line up... If you are looking from the back of the car forward... the top of the door is aligned but the bottom back corner sits out about a inch or so... here are the pics...

https://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b167/tonegod/heralddoor3.jpg
https://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b167/tonegod/heralddoor2.jpg
https://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b167/tonegod/heralddoor.jpg

I know, the car is black and it is hard to see.. but hopefull you can get a drift of what is going on...

So what so I do, any suggestions.... Can the rear of the car be disconnect from the frame and pulled that way from the bottom to align?? Thanks in advance for any help..

Jack
 
Hi,

I'm not all that familiar with Heralds, but might have some ideas based upon common Triumph construction techniques or just 1950/60s auto assembly methods in general.

I can think of three or four possibilities that I'd check:

1. Does the door sit outward (at the bottom) when compared to the front fender, the same as the rear? If so, it's most likely a matter of adjusting the lower hinge inward.

2. If not, i.e. it only appears to be out at the rear, compared to the rear fender but is okay at the front, one of two things is happening. Either the front fender is off (and the door is off as well because it's aligned to the front fender) or the door itself is twisted.

If the front fender is out near the bottom edge, and the door along with it, the fix would simply be to move both inward.

3. A twisted door might be a sign that it's been hit and repaired, or that it was reskinned and welded back together afterward without first aligning it properly (or was welded too quickly and warped due to heat). You might find other signs of either of these things: internal signs of damage or dent repair if it was hit (after removing the trim panel), or seam and/or plug welds instead of factory-looking tack welds around the perimeter, if it was reskinned. Could be a combination of these, or even a partial reskin, too.

A warped door, for whatever reason, will usually be hard to fix without removing tack and perimeter welds around the edge flange, at least. However, it's worth a shot before going to that trouble. Try putting a wood block in the door jamb near the top of the b-post, and push inwards on the base of the door. A little hard to tell from the pics, but if that's a convertible it would be a good idea to have someone on the inside bracing against the top of the b-post.

4. Which brings up another possible reason for this sort of misalignment if the car is a convertible... the b-post itself. Does it appear to lean outward at the top, especially when compared with the other (presumably well-alligned) side? If so, check the base of the b-post for any rust at the base in particular, from inside the wheel well and even from the interior (might need to peel off some glued on vinyl trim). If weakened by rust, the b-post might be leaning outward, causing the door alignment problem. Even if not rusted, the b-post might be bent outward.

You might be able to stretch some strings tightly front-to-back alongside the car, one on either side, perhaps run a string centerline too, and use a tape measure to see if anything measures off. Compare measurements side-to-side. Use reference points on the car and measure front-to-back, as well. Diagonal measurements might tell you if the car is out of square on the frame. (It occurs to me that alternatively, two or three laser levels might be used instead of string).

If you decide the b-post might be the problem, you could try parking the car parallel to a wall, about 3 feet out. Then put your back against the wall, your feet on the fender near the top of the b-post and give it a bit of a shove. Have someone else watch closely as you do this and go slowly at first and be careful not to cause a local dent on the fender or to scuff up the paint (stocking feet sometimes work best). It's hard to say how much it will move, but some movement is usually possible.

If you are nervous about trying any of the above yourself, have a good body shop look at it, preferably one that's knowledgeable about old car construction. They might be able to fix it quickly and easily, at relatively little cost.

Hope this helps.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cheers.gif
 
Thanks Alan for the input.. I will try to address your questions...

1. Does the door sit outward (at the bottom) when compared to the front fender, the same as the rear? If so, it's most likely a matter of adjusting the lower hinge inward.

<font color="red"> </font> No, the front fender is part of the hood.. Like a spitfire...that side is pretty level...

2. If not, i.e. it only appears to be out at the rear, compared to the rear fender but is okay at the front, one of two things is happening. Either the front fender is off (and the door is off as well because it's aligned to the front fender) or the door itself is twisted.

If the front fender is out near the bottom edge, and the door along with it, the fix would simply be to move both inward.

<font color="red"> </font> It may not matter, but the front fender is the hood.. It looks good on passenger side, so I would think that would rule that out, but not sure...


3. A twisted door might be a sign that it's been hit and repaired, or that it was reskinned and welded back together afterward without first aligning it properly (or was welded too quickly and warped due to heat). You might find other signs of either of these things: internal signs of damage or dent repair if it was hit (after removing the trim panel), or seam and/or plug welds instead of factory-looking tack welds around the perimeter, if it was reskinned. Could be a combination of these, or even a partial reskin, too.

A warped door, for whatever reason, will usually be hard to fix without removing tack and perimeter welds around the edge flange, at least. However, it's worth a shot before going to that trouble. Try putting a wood block in the door jamb near the top of the b-post, and push inwards on the base of the door. A little hard to tell from the pics, but if that's a convertible it would be a good idea to have someone on the inside bracing against the top of the b-post.

<font color="red"> </font> I am glad you mentioned this because that is what I did.. I felt rather barbaric, but I loosened all the bolts at the hinges and did this to see if I could get it closer than it was... And I couldn't.. I took the interior off the door and the door looks pretty good...there is a small crack at the vent post.. the normal place they go.. that was welded and broke again... but I just can't see how that would do it... but could.. the car was totally repainted about 8 years ago.. so I was thinking that the body was not lined up right... no clue

4. Which brings up another possible reason for this sort of misalignment if the car is a convertible... the b-post itself. Does it appear to lean outward at the top, especially when compared with the other (presumably well-alligned) side? If so, check the base of the b-post for any rust at the base in particular, from inside the wheel well and even from the interior (might need to peel off some glued on vinyl trim). If weakened by rust, the b-post might be leaning outward, causing the door alignment problem. Even if not rusted, the b-post might be bent outward.

<font color="red"> </font> As it is the b post (vent right?) looks good as compared to windsheild frame... I can get the gap at the back bottom a little better, but it brings the vent window out away from the frame too much..

Wish I had a spare door to put on it...

Thanks for the help... I will try the string down the side that may help..

Thanks again

Jack
 
[ QUOTE ]
Hey guys, if you missed my first post... I have this triumph herald that is in pretty good body shape, except the driver side door is misaligned....Can the rear of the car be disconnect from the frame and pulled that way from the bottom to align?? Thanks in advance for any help.

[/ QUOTE ]Owing to the "Mecanno-like" (Erector Set for us colonists) nature of Herald construction, yes, some shimming and/or repositioning of the rear body tub can be done, and it might help here.

One question first: in one picture, it appears the car is on jackstands. If so, and depending on where they're located, that alone might be causing enough twist to throw off the door alignment, which might just look a whole lot better once the car is down on four wheels/tires and the suspension "resettled"! Then again, maybe not.

You mention the repaint; any evidence of bodywork on the LR fender or "B" post area ("B" post being where the latch is)? Underneath, is there any evidence of chassis outrigger repair, especially where the rear axle radius rod bolts to the outrigger? A hasty and/or otherwise incorrect repair might have thrown body alignment off.

Again, Heralds being what they are, there's no absolute guarantee that decent gaps and alignment between front of door and bonnet mean anything except that some previous owner spent some time only on the front edges of the doors and gave up on the rear edges. There's an amazing amount of adjustment available throughout the body and chassis of a Herald, and it can take ages to get everything decent. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
 
Jack,
A few ideas
1. Herald doors are sensitive to the type of rubber sealing lip around the door frame. Most of the modern P channel stuff is to wide, this may be pushing your door our further than normal. the correct rubber profile has a "lip" and takes up less space. you also wont have to slam the door to get it to close.
2. Is the lock plate badly worn? Maybe you can adjust the plate inward slightly and then shim readjust the angle of the hinges.
3. You can get a door.
https://www.classicandsportscarparts.com/ is in South Carolina, that isn't to far from you, and they have a Herald there, at least there web site has a picture of one. However, I would guess that you don't really need it.

I would guess that with the correct profile rubber, and adjusting the door lock you can significantly improve the alignment.
Yisrael
 
Thanks you all for your help and suggestions... Not sure what to think... looking at the car today.. I would say that the hood could be brought to the left (drivers side) a little.... a small adjustment to pass door up, and then the bad looking drivers door... If you just remove the rubber from the door frame, then I should be able to rule out that.....

So if I need to line the whole car up... do I start with the cab and do the front hood fenders then move to the back??? I will try a couple of your suggestion over this next week and see if I can get any closer... I did find some frame repair!!! back right side of car just in front of the axes... So maybe that is my problem... It is just a plate that was welded on one side of the frame tube... Not sure..

Again, thanks

Jack.... wish I had a body shop that knows heralds closer then England....
 
If you haven't already done so, your best bet would be to start by locating a copy of the original factory workshop manual. That manual will have all the measurements and specs and also goes into some detail about refitting and aligning body pieces.

There's also a restoration guide (by Lindsay Porter, I think) that is pretty comprehensive.
 
Jack, Andy's suggestion of getting it off the stands is a darn good one. I've had my 6 on stands and it kind of did what your Herald is doing. Triumphs can be pretty limber.
 
Thanks again, guys... Yes it is on stands, but the door did the same when on wheels also.. I got a manual... but wow it is so vague in procedure I am having a hard time following it... In fact in on sentence it says to measure from point "A" to ground and from "E" to ground but there is no E in the diagram.... I will keep reading, maybe it will sink in eventually...

Thanks again for all the help guys..

Jack
 
Jack
Most of frame measurements are to tell if the frame is bent. However, if you don't se accident damage, this is less likely.
As Andy pointed out there are a huge range of adjustments possible. Most of them however are in terms of height. On your car, it looks like the top of the door lines up nicely.

Incidentally, does the front of the door frame hit the windshield frame? That could be a sign that the rubber spacers between the frame and body have settled down.

Also you didn't say if this is a convertible, but since so many Heralds in the US are, I will assume it is.
Take off the lock catch, and convertible safety catch from the B post and the weather stripping from around the door and see how the door closes, and where it hits.
If it still closes as the same angle, you should be able to loosen up the hinge bolts on the door side and try to slightly rotate bottom of the door in. Ignore alignment to the bonnet for now. That is much easier to deal with.
Let us know what happens

Yisrael
 
Just an update of my tired Herald... worked this weekend on the car and I think all of your suggestion are right... I put the driver side door back on, raising it a bit and then took out the door seal out and it is better, still not perfect but better.... It is pretty even when comparied to the hood, but the rear to the door gap is really off, large at the top and almost nothing at the bottom... so I think if I can get all of the mounting bolts loose (got most of them) and I raise the back of the car and move it back a bit if I can... I think I will be pretty close... I did find out that the door catch on the driver door was badly worn (I guess from it being out of line) so I think I will have to replace that.. but then should be ok... then off to the other problems..
Thanks to you all for putting up with my ignorance and with all the great suggestions...

Happy holidays...

Jack
 
Yet more thoughts:
1. How does the other door line up?
2. Does it look as if any body-to-frame bolts anywhere on the car have been disturbed, including any bolts on the bonnet?

I probably should have mentioned earlier that using the bonnet as a reference point is probably the worst thing one can do; a look at most any Herald, including "show quality" restored cars and even those seen in some factory photos, will tell you that gaps between bonnet and door could be huge and inconsistent. Not that a good gap is not acheiveable there, but there are many potential adjustment points on the bonnet. And one minor parking lot "tap" on a front bumper overrider can send that bonnet WAY out of alignment, as can years of lifting the bonnet by one latch or the other (as 99.9% of Herald owners do)!
 
Thanks Andrew.... I didn't use the bonnet as a reference point, but had to choose one, so I used the front section of the car... It looks as though the car was completely apart and painted at some point in it's life... You can see some fairly professional fixes on the body and the frame... The other door sits out just a little, but it has a small gap at the bottom of the door and a larger gap at the top just like the driver door now... so I am happy that they are atleast the same or close to the same... Going to take a break from the body for a while... took the dash out which cost me lots of hair pulling. but finally got it out... of course the carboard dash is breaking apart.... any ideas for a good fix?? I was thinking fiberglass layed under the dash to reinforce the dash...

Thanks again for all the help

Jack
 
[ QUOTE ]
... took the dash out which cost me lots of hair pulling. but finally got it out... of course the carboard dash is breaking apart.... any ideas for a good fix?? I was thinking fiberglass layed under the dash to reinforce the dash...

[/ QUOTE ]I suspect that's THE approach to take. Dashes are NOT easy to find, and they don't make 'em any more. (If anyone did, they'd undoubtedly be RHD versions.)
 
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