Ethanol

[Don Elliott]

If we are having problems with 10% ethanol additive, how many problems will we encounter when we have to use Hydrogen as the only remaining fuel for our beloved TRs ?

 

[glemon]

Someone mentioned visiting a relative in Nebraska and Ethanol being offered here at a higher price, actually it is a mid grade that is almost always 8-10 cents cheaper than regular.

I use it in my modern cars all the time with absolutely no problems--and it is a pretty popular choice here, what with many of us in this neck of the woods a generation or two removed from growing corn ourselves.

It would not be cheaper if it were not subsidized--I think the having the choice is good, but would not like to have it as my only option.

I do not use it in the collector cars for the reasons cited, concerns about vapor lock and rubber components.

 

[swift6]

Someone mentioned visiting a relative in Nebraska and Ethanol being offered here at a higher price, actually it is a mid grade that is almost always 8-10 cents cheaper than regular.

I do not use it in the collector cars for the reasons cited, concerns about vapor lock and rubber components.

That was me, it was probably the location. In Sidney (stopped at Cabela's) the 89 octane 10% Ethanol mix was $3.49/gallon. They also had non-Ethanol mix 89 Octane for $3.09/gallon. This was also over the Thanksgiving weekend. Signs and pumps matched so I don't think it was a mistake.

If you lived in Colorado you would not have a choice but to use it. All of our Gasoline is 10% Ethanol mix. Unless you buy AV gas or race fuel directly from the suppliers.

 

[swift6]

As for water being more damaging than CO2, that is just, well... the planet is over 2/3 water already. Consider that a lucky thing for us. Water is 2/3 Hydrogen BTW: H-O-H, not H2O. WE're 3/4 water.

Didn't necessarily say it was damaging Doc. I implied the effect could be far greater. Yes, the planet is over 2/3 water and yes we are 3/4 water. But by burning Hydrogen with the only emission byproduct being water vapor your adding to the system already in place. If all the cars in the greater Tampa Bay area were running on hydrogen and they were all pushing out clean water vapor do you think that would not have an effect on the humidity levels in the same area? Now transfer that to a high altitude desert city like Denver and increase the relative humidity through innocent clean burning water vapor emitting Hydrogen. Is it possible that a significant localized increase in humidity would have a pretty large effect on local climate? Not to mention the role that water vapor plays in cloud formation and how clouds help regulate earth temps. Now spread that worldwide. Want to see some real climate change!

I realize that it sounds like a chicken little/sky is falling argument but all I am saying is that the ramifications for large scale implementation needs to be considered on something as simple as burning Hydrogen with, the seemingly harmless, clean, simple, 'only water vapor' emissions.

Why does there need to be any emissions if its only water vapor. Can't it be reclaimed on the vehicle instead of releasing it into the atmosphere? Fill the Hydrogen tank and empty your water tank (since when the vapor would cool it would condense back to liquid). Maybe combine it with BMW's steam driven hybrid concept.

Not condemning the use of Hydrogen as a fuel. Just saying that the whole cycle need to be more thought out than it seems to be.

 

[DrEntropy]

Agaun, I'llsay I expect it to 'evolve'. There would be NO reason not to collect the water, it'd be pre-distilled! I'm sure the whole thing will be well and truly hashed out, as we learned from our experiences with fossil fuel.

If we are having problems with 10% ethanol additive, how many problems will we encounter when we have to use Hydrogen as the only remaining fuel for our beloved TRs ?

With 10% ethanol I will need to rejet seven Weber carbs to run my toys. I expect to be dust by the time hydrogen is the only fuel available. /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

 

[AweMan]

Horse an Buggie anyone ?
or bicycles {too cold for that here in the winter}
We could always hoof it.
Seriously, A commuter car, small, with just enough engine to do about 40 mph With 4 passengers top end. to be used in citys only. {not for freeway use} Mandate it to get no less than 75 MPG. Make it a multifuel engine that will burn anything that is combustable. Pass laws making it illegal to drive anything else in the citys.
Just my idea of at least part of the save fuel/create less pollution scheme of things.
Alcohol May be part of the answer but, at the risk of higher world food prices in my opinion.
Hydrogen, I`ll go with the "I`ll be dust Doc`s idea" on this one. Although a plauseable idea at the risk of creating a more humid environment as suggested. {possibly a real bad thing in winter in the north country.} {possibly a lot of flooding too!}
Fossil Fuel, Too few resources, greedy entities control it.
Ruins our atmosphere. {plainly, just too many negatives here}
Nuke power, N.I.M.B.Y. living in a state that has NO reactors, yet we bury other peoples spent nuke fuel rods in our west desert despite a majority of this states citisens protests againt the idea.
What ever the real answer is, my hopes are that it is clean, economical, redily available and cost effective.

Maybe Horse and Buggie isn`t all that far fetched after all

 

[TR6oldtimer]

Horse an Buggie anyone ?
...
Maybe Horse and Buggie isn`t all that far fetched after all

There are 135,921,000 cars in the US. Lets replace all the cars with horses. Each horse generates about one cubic yard of waste each month or 1,631,052,000 cubic yards each year. I am sure no one wants that in their back yard.

However with that number of horses, my cousin who shoes horses for a living would not go wanting for business. /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/jester.gif

Oh, and if we capture the methane, a simple conversion to use it on our cars, and we can still drive...

 

[DrEntropy]

Equine Flatulence Power'd!!! "EFP"!! A mahvelous plan! And we can all grow tomatoes with free fertilizer. /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/jester.gif

 

[AweMan]

Methane could be a viable source of fuel Not from Animal waste {However ... they could contribute significantly} but instead, from the ocean floor. The problem bieng not only transporting it from the source but actualy obtaining it from the depths of the ocean. According to this article
As far as pollutants go Methane is a fairly clean burning source according to This article
The Horse and Buggie comment was {I guess} a lame attempt at humor.
As I`v said before my idea of humor is not what one would expect in most cases. Usualy pretty DRY!

 

[2wrench]

Anybody remember the Budweiser commercial where
the horses flatuence sets a guy's date on fire?

Funniest commercial in the world, probably for ever
and all time. It was one of those Super Bowl
commercials that actaully aired only a few times,
literally. They had it pulled right away as being
in poor taste, I am sure.

Clydesdale horses and buggy. Special occasion. Well
dressed people. Gentleman helps attractive date onto
the buggy. Pours the alcohol after they're in.
Lights a candle for romantic mood......

Then: Horse's tale lifts; flatuence happens....
combustion with candle; huge torch effect results
with flame throwing to rival Rambo...

Next shot: Beautiful female with blackened face;
hair smoldering. Disgusting! I can't stop laughing
even as I type. Sorry, Basil.

BTW: What was this thread about?

 

[Dave Russell]

I realize hydrogen is explosive but gasoline and air can make a few fire works too.

A big part of the problem is that Hydrogen is stored & transferred under pressure, & released as a vapor. Gasoline is not.
D

 

[DrEntropy]

Yeah, Gasoline just goes to th' floor and makes great-giant pools of flammable liquid. MUCH better'n risin' into the air and dissipating. /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smirk.gif

 

[TR3driver]

I'm talkin' burn the H2 directly.

The problem is, in simple terms, effectively all of the H2 in the world is either already burned (ie water); or tied up in a fossil fuel containing carbon. And we're already running out of fossil fuels even using the unburned carbon in them ... how much faster will we run out if we start throwing the carbon away ?

No matter how efficient electrolysis (effectively unburning the hydrogen) becomes, it is impossible to get out as much energy as we put in.

First law of thermodynamics : You can't win.
Second law : You can't break even.
Third law : There's no way around the first two laws.
- (my high school physics teacher)

 

[DrEntropy]

it is impossible to get out as much energy as we put in.

"Gasoline" is no exception. We just happen to have chosen it as the most 'do-able' back-when. It's apparent we've gotta do ~something~ different, need to make a choice. Then go at that decision's development hammer 'n tongs.

"Breathe in, breathe out, move on."

And Sir Issac postulated those in a 'clockwork world'... missed defining entropy by <Don Adams> "that much".</Don Adams> /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/jester.gif

 

[TR3driver]

"Gasoline" is no exception.

I agree.
My point is that the real problem is not what form to transport the energy in, but rather where to get the energy in the first place. H2 doesn't offer any solution to that.

And as an energy storage mechanism (which is all H2 offers), it's not very effective. A gallon of gasoline holds over 100,000 Btu; while a gallon of H2 only holds about 40 Btu. Even if you compress the H2 to 200 atmospheres (which requires a seriously stout tank), that's still only 8,000 Btu/gallon. That means our "gas" tanks would have to be over 10 times larger (not to mention heavy enough to hold 3000 psi and be safe in an accident) !

And what about that corner gas station ? At the moment, they have perhaps 10,000 gallons stored underground. Somehow, the thought of them having 100,000 gallons of invisible, explosive gas held at 3000 psi seems a little worrisome to me. I've seen way too much propane spilled (at only 100 psi) to believe that the average "pump jock" can safely handle 3000 psi ... let alone the average car driver. Even 3000 psi air is extremely dangerous; it's more than enough to remove your hand from your arm (or head from neck).

 

[Adrio]

I could not agree more. And the person that cracks that nut will be very very rich.

 

[DrEntropy]

Junior: "We're gonna burn some trees and go 60 miles an hour some day!"

Mom: "James Watt! Go to your room this minute!"


/bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/jester.gif

 

[YankeeTR]

I'm calling Moss to see if they have a Flux Capacitor conversion for a TR2...

 

[TR6oldtimer]

Get one of these....

All you have to when it winds down, is jump out and wind it up and you are on the road again.