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Ethanol

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CORN SQUEEZENS? Great stuff.I even named my Spitfire"WHITELIGHTNING" Seem s to run faster & better.My personal opinion if your car(s)are built properly their shouldn't be problems with corn squeezens(ethenol)Most of bad running LBC's is in the carb setup maintience.Also i use fuel stabilizer,helps keep fuel residue buildup down.I've always used Marathon 93 octane(w/techtron)never had a problem.
Ken&WhiteLightning
 
another reason the government should stay of of businesses! it takes more energy input to produce ethanol than you get out of it, cheap vodka at 50 percent alchol, its about 6 dollars per 750 ML. thats .008c per ML, 3850 ml per gal is 30 dollars per gallon of ethanol times 2 cause thats 50 percent ethanol, 60 a gallon and if they add 10 percent to a gallon of gas, then that adds 6 dollars per gallon real cost, Am I figuring this right??? If we had to pay the true cost no one would buy it.
 
hondo402000 said:
Am I figuring this right???
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You left out taxes, and presumably the cost of making 'potable' vs 'burnable' alcohol.

Don't know what happened with it, but I remember a prof at Purdue saying some years ago that he had come up with a refining process for corn that could put 'squeezins' in the pump for around $2/gallon (presumably without taxes). Of course that was with the price of corn back then, which ISTR was under $2/bushel. Since it was still under $2/bushel as recently as 2005, presumably we can get it back down to that once corn production increases to meet demand.

Assuming of course it's possible to grow that much corn !
 
hondo402000 said:
Am I figuring this right???
Click to expand...

I don't think so. I'm not saying that ethanol is a good idea but there is a lot of tax in the price of liquor. You're also paying for the "taste" etc. I believe that the current subsidy on fuel ethanol is around $0.50 / gallon of ethanol - not the $57 / gallon of ethanol that your numbers give.

I'm not wild about the $0.50 / gallon subsidy and with the mandate to produce much larger amounts of fuel ethanol in the future, I worry that the subsidy may have to go up. I would like to see no subsidy on it at all. Then if it makes sense, people will do it on their own and if it is too expensive, it will die. However, once this became political, the chances of a logical outcome went down dramatically.

Bryan
 
TR3driver said:
....
Assuming of course it's possible to grow that much corn !
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Every time I hear of alternative energy, it is seldom put into perspective that people can relate to. To this end, the following is provided:

In 1998 or so it was estimated that 110,000,000 gallons of gasoline were used in Santa Cruz county.
2.6 gallons of Ethanol can be produced from a bushel of corn. We would need 42,307,692 bushels of corn (assuming one crop/year and no crop rotation)

US Aggregate Bushel/acre of corn in 2001 was 137.
So for Santa Cruz to go 100% ethanol it would take 308,815 acres or 483 square miles.
Santa Cruz is only 445 square miles.

Also, it takes more then 16 inches of water to grow corn or 386,590 acre feet of water.
The CO2 generated in the making of ethanol is 18.5# per bushel or 39,1347 tons of gas (plus what is generated when the fuel is burned) and more then 366,666 tons of cattle feed.

A cow can eat about 25 pounds of this stuff a day. So we can now feed about 80,000 more cattle per year
Now a steer weighs 1200lbs, for each 100 pounds of animal 20 cu ft of methane is produced or 19,200,000 cu ft of methane, not to mention disposing of the manure…

Who would we feed the beef to?

Santa Cruz County has about 1% of the population of California and .1% of the US.
Extrapolation of the above is mind boggling
 
I've got a little different outlook on this stuff...

First, I'm in the trucking biz and my company is hauling about 200 loads of ethanol by-products out of Wisconsin and Michigan ethanol plants right now.

Two, While initially it took more energy to produce ethanol than it produces itself that is not now true. There were large costs involved in transporting the raw materials and finished products a few years ago. Now the producers use rail for large shipments where they used trucks in the past. Most of the corn come in by truck BUT many of these same trucks reload at the same plant with by-products which make it much more economical to produce. The additional plants being constructed means they don't have to ship the product long distances via truck...uses less energy than just a short time ago.

Third, While corn prices are high right now they were at the same levels in the 1970's...I think most farmers deserve 1970 prices for their products. The ethanol producers told me the 50 cents per gallon subsidy goes to the oil companies who sell the product to use for advertsing and equipment.

Fourth, While corn is used for production of ethanol the by-products...dry and wet distillers grain are used by the cattle, pork and dairy industrys as cattle feed, too. And the price of this feed is cheaper than corn feed. A lot of distillers grain is being exported to China...it's about time they bought something from us! The ethanol production only removes the sugars from the corn and leaves the fat and fiber. The farmers don't care about the sugar....they need to fatten their cattle so the "by-products" work just as good and the cost is OK with most of them....at least the ones I've spoken with.

Finally, In my area E85 is 40 cents per gallon cheaper than E10. I use E20 in my '95 Lincoln and '87 Chevy pick-up with no ill effects. I buy it whenever I can as it's 15 cents cheaper. And my Hemi-powered '56 F100 is slated to run on E85. I guess I'd sooner buy "home grown" stuff than spend more $$$ financing overseas governments who support terrorism...and if that means a few driveability problems and a little more maintenance so be it.

May the floggings begin....
 
what I mean is it takes propane to heat the mash to distill the alchol, more propane btu in to convert it to alcohol, We have OIL Here just the enviromental wakos minority and Our lovely government wont let us drill for it, but China and cuba are drilling off our coast. Whats the deal with that!
 
tomshobby said:
/bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/iagree.gif 110% with Yankee

Additionally, science is now making it possible to efficiently produce ethanol from wood fiber and many other plant sources we do not currently use.
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Yep Tom you're right. I talked to an engineer at a plant in Michigan and he said they can't use sawgrass in the north because of tempurature storage problems but it will work in the south. And, while his operation currently only uses corn, he admits that a few years down the road there will be cheaper alternatives to corn.
 
Roger on the offshore drilling...shouldn't WE be doing that? Off topic, I know. Sorry.
 
STOP th' MUSIC!!!

Everybody find a seat....

The only way off this carousel is to bite th' bullet of total infrastructure change and find our way to a truly renewable fuel. It's HYDROGEN.
 
DrEntropy said:
STOP th' MUSIC!!!

Everybody find a seat....

The only way off this carousel is to bite th' bullet of total infrastructure change and find our way to a truly renewable fuel. It's HYDROGEN.
Click to expand...
Ok...but I want to drive my car today...well maybe not today since it's going to be -5F tonite but soon....I just hope I won't have to buy my water (to make the hydrogen) from Saudi Arabia...
 
DrEntropy said:
and find our way to a truly renewable fuel. It's HYDROGEN.
Click to expand...

Doc, you left the smiley face off your joke !
 
DrEntropy said:
STOP th' MUSIC!!!
The only way off this carousel is to bite th' bullet of total infrastructure change and find our way to a truly renewable fuel. It's HYDROGEN.
Click to expand...
Do you have any idea how explosive Hydrogen is when mixed with air? It's low molecular weight makes it able to escape from the smallest leak. The problems of safe containment & transfer make it a truly formidable project. Total infrastructure change indeed!

I have seen 10 ton structures put into orbit by a tiny Hydrogen leak combined with a spark.
D
 
I realize hydrogen is explosive but gasoline and air can make a few fire works too. I think the Ford Pintos gave witness to that a few decades ago. Fuel just has a dangerous nature. Funny how natural gas is thought of as a safe fuel in todays time. I guess some kind of product like mercaptan can be developed for hydrogen and detectors, sensors etc to make things safer than the Zep.
 
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