TR4/4A Engine Noise--Advice Please

[KVH]

I just pulled the water pump. Though it was not leaking, and though it's barely one year old, the bearings are shot. It squeaks and binds on every revolution. I'm hoping that was my knocking sound, though I was hearing a ceramic knock from that area, not a squeak. Perhaps under load and RPMs, it turns to a knock? Back to the rocker arm, Randall, are you saying that oil flows through the middle of that arm? Is there a maintenance routine for that? Anything else to check under that valve cover? I may also change the oil and use synthetic in case I've got a sticking lifter like Geo suggested. I did check the distributor weights, but just by eyeballing with magnifiers. The springs were attached and all looked good. If it's not this water pump or something under the valve cover, I'll pull that again and get right down into it.

 

[TR3driver]

Back to the rocker arm, Randall, are you saying that oil flows through the middle of that arm? Is there a maintenance routine for that? Anything else to check under that valve cover?

Yes, the rocker shaft is hollow and gets fed with low pressure/flow oil through the rear pedestal. The shaft has a small hole at each rocker, and the rocker has a small cavity inside formed by the bushing on each side that rides on the shaft. Then the rocker has a small hole on top that you can see. When the cavity fills, oil starts flowing (oozing is more like it, at idle) out of the hole on top.

I do a quick visual on the pins that hold the caps on the shaft, and the screw that locates the shaft to the rear pedestal, plus a general overall look. Can't hurt to try to tighten the nuts on the pedestals, but usually they are OK.

Just a thought, if you have a digital camera, you might try taking a short video that includes the noise and posting it here. Noises are almost as hard to describe as colors, and someone might say "Oh yeah, that's ...".

 

[KVH]

I should delete my last post because it gives the impression that I have a slight bit of knowledge about what I'm doing. I just "pulled" the pulley off my water pump using a three-legged puller. I'm not sure anything was wrong with it. Instead, the keyway inside my pulley was both wide and cracked open with pieces of cast iron falling out. Makes me think I installed it wrong a year ago. I remember thinking it was too snug, and I "snugged it up" by tightening the locknut on the shaft. The key that came with it also seemed too thin, and too high. I remember being puzzled. My feelings now are different. Here comes some more expense, but hopefully some fun and I'll be back on the road without that crazy feeling of hearing things.

 

[TR3driver]

You were lucky. Last time I didn't get that joint tight enough, the shaft snapped at the base of the threads and the pulley went bounding around the engine compartment. The pulley needs to be a tight fit on the shaft, otherwise it works a bit every time the engine turns and although the motion is small, it will eventually get bigger.

I was actually disappointed that they no longer sell pumps with the pulley permanently mounted.

 

[karls59tr]

The pulley keyway. Hey that's what I said the problem probably was! :smile-new:

 

[KVH]

The pulley keyway. Hey that's what I said the problem probably was! :smile-new:

Yes, thank you! My problem was actually the water pump pulley and not the crank pulley where the fan is, but that was going to be my next pursuit.

 

[TimK1955tr2]

HI KVH, do you plan on getting a new pulley or sourcing a used one? I am dealing with the exact same issue, I am meeting with a local TR3 guy who may have some original used water pumps I can snag a pulley from. I see Moss has a part number for a new pulley, I am not sure if that pulley is for original or aftermarket pumps or even if there is a difference? Thanks, Tim

 

[KVH]

I bought the new pulley. It seems original, but it's a bit "copper" in tone. Very stout. I'm installing later tonight. The keyway is awfully tight. I'm trying to be careful. I just bought the standard 4 vane pump as well. No more "upgraded" versions. Don't seem to make any difference. Any advice on that keyway? Use grease?

 

[TR3driver]

I wouldn't use grease, just more force. Stand the pump up so the end of the shaft is on the bench, make sure the bolt is in the right hole, then gently tap the pulley into place with a BFH & socket that will fit over the shaft. Mine is actually put together with a few drops of Loctite on the shaft.

 

[KVH]

I wouldn't use grease, just more force. Stand the pump up so the end of the shaft is on the bench, make sure the bolt is in the right hole, then gently tap the pulley into place with a BFH & socket that will fit over the shaft. Mine is actually put together with a few drops of Loctite on the shaft.

So you assemble the pump to the pulley before you fasten both back to the block?

 

[TR3driver]

So you assemble the pump to the pulley before you fasten both back to the block?

Yup, that's the idea, although that's actually the outer part of the pump housing rather than the cylinder block.

 

[TimK1955tr2]

Yes, I believe the pulley should be very tight. Any looseness will allow the pulley to "machine" a big gouge in the key and the noise will return. Also, don't forget to slide the one bolt through the housing BEFORE installing the pulley. thanks for the info... Tim

 

[KVH]

I know I've asked this a dozen times, but can I fire up the car after putting the pump back on, or do I need to let the gasket seal for 24 hours?

 

[TimK1955tr2]

I actually removed and installed my water water pump a few times over the last few months and didn't even change the gasket or use extra sealant, everything was fine for me. The cooling system isn't under that much pressure, as long as the gasket is ok you should be fine to go right away. If using a brand new pump there is some discussion about whether to run it in before filling with coolant but even that is debatable...

 

[TR3driver]

I know I've asked this a dozen times, but can I fire up the car after putting the pump back on,

Probably best if you fill it with coolant first. No other reason to wait that I know of.

 

[Geo Hahn]

So you assemble the pump to the pulley before you fasten both back to the block?

I think that's why he said: "make sure the bolt is in the right hole" as there is one bolt that is trapped by the pulley (unless you have replaced that bolt with a stud).

 

[KVH]

I'm looking forward to reporting that all issues are resolved, but I'm not there yet. At this point the new water pump and pulley are great, and I may have something soon to report comparing the 4 vane and 5 vane models. In addition, I found a loose muffler clamp, and I'm embarrassed to say that this was a source of considerable "rattle." My ride is much improved. However, the "tappet sound" is continuing. I removed the valve cover and started the engine, and I notice nothing awry, but the sound seems to have disappeared with the valve cover off. I'll check the clearances again for .010, but I'm really baffled here. I may check the crank pulley keyway next, as Karl suggested, but let me ask--is there any way this noise could be related to the PCV which is disconnected with the valve cover off? Thanks for the help all.

 

[Darrell_Walker]

but let me ask--is there any way this noise could be related to the PCV which is disconnected with the valve cover off? Thanks for the help all.

What kind of PCV do you have? I can't see the original type making much noise, there is a bit of metal but mostly a rubber diaphragm, but the canister type can make a bit of noise when the open/close, and if something is causing enough change in pressure I can see them making a bit of a rattle.

 

[TR3driver]

Did you check the inside of the cover for any shiny spots (indicating that a rocker is somehow hitting the cover) ?

 

[DanB]

So you have ruled out the timing chain tensioner?