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engine knock/ping, retard ignition doesn't help
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bigjones
Jedi Warrior
Offline
Hi there,
First off, the front of the car needs to be jacked up and then securely supported on jack stands - you don't want the car falling on you.
Before that - drain the engine oil.
With the car secure on jack stands, crawl under and remove the oil pan (sump)and everything is exposed in its full glory. Wear glasses because drops of oil will keep on falling off the crank etc.
The rod caps are removed and the bearings replaced, one at a time. The main bearing are a bit more difficult as for example, a small aluminum block has to be removed - one of the srews holding it place is accessed fron the front of the engine. The thrust washers are easily replaced by rotating in a new one and the old one falls out. You'll need a torque wrench for putting back all the bolts, by the way.
Its dirty and messy but you have to keep things spotless in the engine. (wear those dispo surgical gloves) Took me all weekend but I move slow.
Here is one link I found:
https://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Speedway/1080/thrustwasherinstall.html
There is another good link but I cannot seem to find it right now - I'll get back tonight.
Cheers,
Adrian
First off, the front of the car needs to be jacked up and then securely supported on jack stands - you don't want the car falling on you.
Before that - drain the engine oil.
With the car secure on jack stands, crawl under and remove the oil pan (sump)and everything is exposed in its full glory. Wear glasses because drops of oil will keep on falling off the crank etc.
The rod caps are removed and the bearings replaced, one at a time. The main bearing are a bit more difficult as for example, a small aluminum block has to be removed - one of the srews holding it place is accessed fron the front of the engine. The thrust washers are easily replaced by rotating in a new one and the old one falls out. You'll need a torque wrench for putting back all the bolts, by the way.
Its dirty and messy but you have to keep things spotless in the engine. (wear those dispo surgical gloves) Took me all weekend but I move slow.
Here is one link I found:
https://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Speedway/1080/thrustwasherinstall.html
There is another good link but I cannot seem to find it right now - I'll get back tonight.
Cheers,
Adrian
bigjones
Jedi Warrior
Offline
Me again,
I had followed this excellent procedure:
https://www.wideopenwest.com/~kottage/tech/1500_bearings.html
However, here are a couple of observations. Please bear in mind I am not a
mechanic and YMMV:
1. Read the Haynes book as well. For example, Haynes tells you to remove any
protective coating on the bearings before installation.
2. I could not roll the new bearing around the crankshaft. I had to first
move the old one around with a pick (as directed) and then insert the new shell
into the gap and then roll it around. (The old one rolls around and falls out).
3. The front main bearing was a PITA to remove. I have a set of 4 Kobalt
picks but I could only budge the old bearing 1/8". After about an hour of
frustration, I got a long thin screwdriver (for more leverage), bent the tip
slightly in the vice and filed it to a sharp point. The shell then came out in
2 seconds. I am the man!
4. On this car at least, I had to bend back (with vice-grips) some of the
sheet metal underbody so I could get a straight shot at the front main bearing
cap bolts. Even so, the bolt heads were very slightly rounded off after I got
them out. (There is no room for a swivel socket).
5. Replacing the front sealing block was an unexpected PITA. There are 2
little gaskets and 2 pieces of wood to keep in place. (This is upside down
under a grimy car, trying to keep everything spotlessly clean).
I manged to do it after several atttempts but then the sealing block was
sitting proud of the engine block. I ditched the gaskets and one piece of wood
(used some silicone sealant instead).
6. You may want to magnetize your longest screwdriver so you can replace the 2
screws in the front of the engine that help hold the sealing block. Getting
the other bolt back in the timing cover is also an exercise in patience.
7. The day before, I permatexed the gasket to the pan so it wouldn't move on
final assembly.
8. Mark the bearing caps before diassembly so they can be replaced in the
proper postion!
Hope this helps.
Regards, Adrian 1500
I had followed this excellent procedure:
https://www.wideopenwest.com/~kottage/tech/1500_bearings.html
However, here are a couple of observations. Please bear in mind I am not a
mechanic and YMMV:
1. Read the Haynes book as well. For example, Haynes tells you to remove any
protective coating on the bearings before installation.
2. I could not roll the new bearing around the crankshaft. I had to first
move the old one around with a pick (as directed) and then insert the new shell
into the gap and then roll it around. (The old one rolls around and falls out).
3. The front main bearing was a PITA to remove. I have a set of 4 Kobalt
picks but I could only budge the old bearing 1/8". After about an hour of
frustration, I got a long thin screwdriver (for more leverage), bent the tip
slightly in the vice and filed it to a sharp point. The shell then came out in
2 seconds. I am the man!
4. On this car at least, I had to bend back (with vice-grips) some of the
sheet metal underbody so I could get a straight shot at the front main bearing
cap bolts. Even so, the bolt heads were very slightly rounded off after I got
them out. (There is no room for a swivel socket).
5. Replacing the front sealing block was an unexpected PITA. There are 2
little gaskets and 2 pieces of wood to keep in place. (This is upside down
under a grimy car, trying to keep everything spotlessly clean).
I manged to do it after several atttempts but then the sealing block was
sitting proud of the engine block. I ditched the gaskets and one piece of wood
(used some silicone sealant instead).
6. You may want to magnetize your longest screwdriver so you can replace the 2
screws in the front of the engine that help hold the sealing block. Getting
the other bolt back in the timing cover is also an exercise in patience.
7. The day before, I permatexed the gasket to the pan so it wouldn't move on
final assembly.
8. Mark the bearing caps before diassembly so they can be replaced in the
proper postion!
Hope this helps.
Regards, Adrian 1500
tosoutherncars
Jedi Knight
Offline
There you go! See, I told you someone smarter would come along and correct me... :wink:
"endfloat at .006" to .014" ( ie 6 to 14 thousandths of an inch)" Is the play you're seeing at the pulley more than that? If so then yes, you've probably found the source of your noise.
Wow, that first link would have scared the heck out of me, if I'd seen that before I'd done the job... remember, that's also instruction on machining custom thrust washers that will be screwed in. You don't have to do any of that, just remove the old thrust washers (probably from the bottom of the oil pan!) and install new ones. No lathes or lexan plates required! :wink: That second set of instructions looks spot-on.
Do you drive the car year-round? If not, and if you're set on doing the mains as well, I would probably vote for pulling the motor (assuming you've got a garage you can work in.) It's not a pleasant job, and I can't imagine how much nicer it would be with the engine inverted on a stand!
"endfloat at .006" to .014" ( ie 6 to 14 thousandths of an inch)" Is the play you're seeing at the pulley more than that? If so then yes, you've probably found the source of your noise.
Wow, that first link would have scared the heck out of me, if I'd seen that before I'd done the job... remember, that's also instruction on machining custom thrust washers that will be screwed in. You don't have to do any of that, just remove the old thrust washers (probably from the bottom of the oil pan!) and install new ones. No lathes or lexan plates required! :wink: That second set of instructions looks spot-on.
Do you drive the car year-round? If not, and if you're set on doing the mains as well, I would probably vote for pulling the motor (assuming you've got a garage you can work in.) It's not a pleasant job, and I can't imagine how much nicer it would be with the engine inverted on a stand!
tosoutherncars
Jedi Knight
Offline
I just did rod bearings, along with rings and a hone since I had the head off. My thrust washers had just been done a couple hundred miles before (not by me) so I left them alone, but they can be done from underneath as well.
No, I didn't do mains. They can't easily be done; you can't see them easily, as you can the rod bearings with the caps off. But, as seen above, you can loosen everything, and then try to drive the old bearings out and the new ones in, in a circular motion. Steps 23 to 26 in the excellent link above. As I said before, if I thought the mains needed doing, I think that's the point at which I'd pull the engine.
I'll see if I can find some pictures that might help! Don't think I took many from underneath though.
No, I didn't do mains. They can't easily be done; you can't see them easily, as you can the rod bearings with the caps off. But, as seen above, you can loosen everything, and then try to drive the old bearings out and the new ones in, in a circular motion. Steps 23 to 26 in the excellent link above. As I said before, if I thought the mains needed doing, I think that's the point at which I'd pull the engine.
I'll see if I can find some pictures that might help! Don't think I took many from underneath though.
bigjones
Jedi Warrior
Offline
Yeah,
Trust me I done it in my Midget 1500- replaced the main bearings, rod bearings and thrust washers by dropping the oil pan and doing it from underneath. There is a lot of crawling under the car and crawling back out to change latex gloves, etc, so it was rather tiring.
Also, I have heard that the Haynes spec of 6 to 14 thou is too high and that someone was recommending something like 4 to 6. You may want to Google that, unless someone can chime in.
Please make sure the car is securely supported on jacks, back wheels chocked, handbrake on. You are going to be pulling mighty hard on that torque wrench.
Needless to say, if you belong to a club or whatever, get a second opinion on that knock before you start but I can't think of anything else it can be.
Can't think of anything so good luck and get 'er done!
Cheers, Adrian
Trust me I done it in my Midget 1500- replaced the main bearings, rod bearings and thrust washers by dropping the oil pan and doing it from underneath. There is a lot of crawling under the car and crawling back out to change latex gloves, etc, so it was rather tiring.
Also, I have heard that the Haynes spec of 6 to 14 thou is too high and that someone was recommending something like 4 to 6. You may want to Google that, unless someone can chime in.
Please make sure the car is securely supported on jacks, back wheels chocked, handbrake on. You are going to be pulling mighty hard on that torque wrench.
Needless to say, if you belong to a club or whatever, get a second opinion on that knock before you start but I can't think of anything else it can be.
Can't think of anything so good luck and get 'er done!
Cheers, Adrian
dklawson
Yoda
Offline
Years ago I did this on our GT6. Yes... it's a 6-cylinder but it's just a big version of the Triumph 1500 4-cylinder you're working with. As stated, replacing bearings from underneath is tiring and a bit of a mess but can be easier than pulling the engine.
I'm currently working on getting our project Spitfire on the road. It has the 1296 version of your engine. I may be faced with the same project that you are but in our case it's to boost the oil pressure. Before buying the project car we checked for crank float so I'm not looking at thrusts so much as rod end bearings.
Duncan and Adrian, out of curiosity, did you see an improvement in oil pressure when you put the con rod bearings in? Did you also bother to fit a new oil pump? Lastly, Adrian... where are you in NC? I'm in Durham.
I'm currently working on getting our project Spitfire on the road. It has the 1296 version of your engine. I may be faced with the same project that you are but in our case it's to boost the oil pressure. Before buying the project car we checked for crank float so I'm not looking at thrusts so much as rod end bearings.
Duncan and Adrian, out of curiosity, did you see an improvement in oil pressure when you put the con rod bearings in? Did you also bother to fit a new oil pump? Lastly, Adrian... where are you in NC? I'm in Durham.
jcatnite
Jedi Knight
Offline
There is a lot of information here. And all of it is good. Just make sure that what you are hearing is a knock in the engine and not an exhaust leak. An exhaust leak will most likely sound like a spark knock or ping regardless of engine speed. An rod knock will be deep in the engine and sound like a deeper pitch thud that varies with engine speed. If you don't have a dial indicator. Take a 6 inch ruler and get a good measurement of crank position after you force it towards the rear of the car. Then push the clutch and measure it again. The thrust washers are nearly .100" thick. That is nearly an 1/8" so you will be able to detect that. Replacing the thrust washers are a good idea on a routine frequency with these engines but I wouldn't disturb the rod bearings of an engine that has a lot of miles on it unless one is damaged or you replace them frequently as well (like many racers do). Go here to read a good write up about thrust washers.
https://www.teglerizer.com/triumphstuff/thrustwashers.htm
JC
https://www.teglerizer.com/triumphstuff/thrustwashers.htm
JC
bigjones
Jedi Warrior
Offline
Doug,
I replaced the bearings in two sessions. First, was when I got the dreaded "rod knock". That was a mjor mechanical feat for me but it solved the rod knock problem. Didn't improve oil pressure any.
A couple of years later I replaced the thrust washers and, while I was in there, the main bearings. This solved a clutch-jerking problem and also the oil pressure is now way high - 70psi when I first start her up in the morning. I didn't bother fitting a new oil pump.
I'm in Youngsville (just north of Wake Forest) and I'm a member of the North Carolina MG Car Club. I bet you are enjoying the fall weather here in North Carolina right now!
Cheers,
Adrian
I replaced the bearings in two sessions. First, was when I got the dreaded "rod knock". That was a mjor mechanical feat for me but it solved the rod knock problem. Didn't improve oil pressure any.
A couple of years later I replaced the thrust washers and, while I was in there, the main bearings. This solved a clutch-jerking problem and also the oil pressure is now way high - 70psi when I first start her up in the morning. I didn't bother fitting a new oil pump.
I'm in Youngsville (just north of Wake Forest) and I'm a member of the North Carolina MG Car Club. I bet you are enjoying the fall weather here in North Carolina right now!
Cheers,
Adrian
dklawson
Yoda
Offline
Hi Adrian, it's good to know you're not too far away. I regularly take my Mini to the annual MG club show and have contemplated joining the club. However, I am not a big club guy. I live a few miles from Desmond Mullens who I'm sure you know. I'm also a friend/acquaintance of Rob Edwards.
Our project Spit has got so many problems. The engine is only one of them I have to address. I MAY consider slipping in new bearing shells and an oil pump sometime this fall for the sole purpose of increasing the oil pressure. For now, the car is not on the road so I feel no sense of urgency.
Thanks for the additional information on what you did and the results you had with the oil pressure. If I do replace the bearings it sounds like I'll need to include the mains in the process.
Our project Spit has got so many problems. The engine is only one of them I have to address. I MAY consider slipping in new bearing shells and an oil pump sometime this fall for the sole purpose of increasing the oil pressure. For now, the car is not on the road so I feel no sense of urgency.
Thanks for the additional information on what you did and the results you had with the oil pressure. If I do replace the bearings it sounds like I'll need to include the mains in the process.
jlaird
Great Pumpkin
Offline
Aye, understand but exhaust leak should not knock it should be softer especialy at idle.
Use a long thin screwdriver and hold it against the block by each cylinder in turn, You should hear the bad bearing as a much louder and metallic sound.
Actually if you have good young ears you can hear all the inards working depending where you put the probe.
Use a long thin screwdriver and hold it against the block by each cylinder in turn, You should hear the bad bearing as a much louder and metallic sound.
Actually if you have good young ears you can hear all the inards working depending where you put the probe.
since the movement in the crankshaft is w/in spec. could the noise be coming from loose/worn-out rod bearings on the crankshaft? Would there be any other signs that rod bearings were going out? Would low oil pressure be a sign? (I do not have low oil pressure when the engine is running eithet at idle or higher rpms)
jcatnite
Jedi Knight
Offline
Low oil pressure would be one symptom but not necessarily. A rod knock isn't a ping. It is a gutteral thud that varies with engine speed. You can hear it pretty much the same on both sides of the engine. An exhaust leak will be more prominent on the side where the manifold bolts up or at the junction where the exhause flange is. The sound of a rod knock will come from deep in the engine. Wrist pins are more of a ping and come from higher up.
JC
JC