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drip at right rear wheel

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tahoe healey

tahoe healey

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Checking out the BJ8 after the conclave in Tahoe I found a leak on the wheel and tire at the right rear. When cleaning the mess I didn't think it was brake fluid. It is thick and oily. I'm thinking the axle seal is giving out. I haven't been able to remove the brake drum yet 'cause one of the nuts is frozen. (I'm grinding it off tomorrow.) If it turns out to be the axle seal can I pull the axle shaft without all the fancy stuff shown in the manual pictures? Any tips on re-install the hub? Is this something better left to the professionals?
 
Provided that the axle is not just overfilled:

The seal is actually fit into the hub & prevents oil from exiting the back of the hub. Going from inside to outside of the hub there is the seal, the hub bearing, a lock tab & the big nut that holds the hub to the axle. A spacer ring fits over the outside of the nut & against the bearing. Depending on the side of the car, one of these nuts is a LH thread, the LH side, I believe. The first "special" tool is a large 2 13/64 8 sided socket for the big nut. People have used all kinds of odd sized 6 sided wrenches & even pipe wrenches. I suggest that you borrow the correct socket or buy one from BCS. You can sometimes get the nut off with a makeshift tool but the nut is quite thin & should be put back very tight, about 80 - 100 ft-lb. You only get a couple of chances before ruining a very expensive nut. If this seal is leaking, the oil is likely to run down the axle but not onto the inside of the wheel.

The most likely place for a leak that soaks the inside of the drum & the inside wheel rim, is the joint between the hub flange & the axle flange. After you get the drum screws & drum off, there is another screw that hold the two flanges together. It don't really do much. Between the two flanges is a paper gasket & on some models, a large O ring. These flanges are actually held together tightly by the lug nuts on the hub studs that hold the wire wheel adapters/splined hubs on. Separate the flanges, a thin chisel wedge sometimes helps, & pull out the axle.

Usually the first sign of loose lug nuts is oil leaking out onto the wheel, & of course the inside of the drum, so check this first. The lug nuts need to be tightened evenly to 55 - 60 ft-lb. Usually an oil leak will show up before the wheel adapters come completely off & you lose a wheel. If any of the hub studs appear to be damaged or worn, now is the time to replace them while the axle is out. It appears that you may already have run into this problem. New studs & lug nuts are expensive but worh the safety if in doubt.

Watch the shop manual about the spacer ring protrusion distance. I believe .001" to .004" as measured with the paper gasket in place. Too little & the bearing is loose on the hub. Too much & the paper gasket won't seal between the flanges. I use a light coating of "Hylomar HPF" on both sides of the paper gasket. The lug nuts are self locking & may possibly be reused, but it is unknown how many times they have already been off & on. If in doubt, either use red Loctite or better yet, get new lug nuts. The lug nuts should always be checked for torque anytime the wheels are off.

Back to the harder problem - If the hub bearing & or seal is bad, the hub needs to be removed & the bearing & seal pressed or "shudder" driven out of the hub with the properly fitting mandrels . They have to go back in exactly square & to the proper depth. Sometimes easy, sometimes not. If the bearing is not seated to full depth or the hub is distorted or worn, the previously mentioned spacer ring will not have the correct projection beyond the hub flange.

Brakes - If the shoes are soaked with oil they can usually be cleaned by thoroughly washing with brake cleaner. Then put them in the oven at 350 degrees for a couple of hours. If no oil bakes out they are clean. If not, wash again with brake cleaner & bake again. I have never had it take more than three tries to get the linings perfectly clean.

Wouldn't hurt to check the other side for stud & lug nut condition while you are at it.
D
 
I have done this job to both sides of my BJ8 at home with some homemade mandrels. They are basically pipe that I machined to fit the job. Using these mandrels and a bearing puller, it is an afternoon job per side. You may borrow my mandrels if you like. The other option is to disassemble the axel and take it to a machine shop to have the bearings pressed off and on. I would guess it would cost between $20 and $40 for each side.

When I replaced the seals, I also replaced the bearings. Yes they are expensive $$$, but my theory was that I didn't want to fool with the hub again and I was afraid that the removal process might damage the race or balls of the old bearings while removing them.
 
Thanks to both of you. The half shaft it out. The nut looks "dinged" already so I'm going to try the pipe wrench. Any tips on getting the old stud out of the flang? I hate to just hammer it. Once the nut is off can I get the seal and bearing with out removing the hub(although the oil seems to not becoming form the tub the axle fits in)?
Thom, did you receive the Email I sent regarding the tach?
 
[ QUOTE ]
Thanks to both of you. The half shaft it out. The nut looks "dinged" already so I'm going to try the pipe wrench. Any tips on getting the old stud out of the flange? I hate to just hammer it. Once the nut is off can I get the seal and bearing with out removing the hub (although the oil seems to not be coming from the tube the axle fits in)?

[/ QUOTE ]
The nut may look dinged but a pipe wrench is really last resort. You are still going to need a socket to properly tighten the old or new nut to 80 ft-lb. I could loan my socket to you but the shipping would likely cost almost as much as the $45 socket.

Once the nut is off, the hub with it's pressed in bearing & seal will just slip off the end of the housing. (The tube the axle fits in) The bearing & seal in the hub still need to be pressed out of the hub.You can remove the stud with a big hammer, but it would be safer to have it pressed out. If one stud is bad there is a good chance that others are bent, partially fractured, or threads in bad shape. Same for the lug nuts.

This is a dangerous place to be fooling around with unknown parts & unfamiliar methods. Too easy to lose a rear wheel if something fails. Not a good place to learn.

You didn't address the question of how far the bearing spacer ring sticks out of the hub flange. As in my first post above, .001" to .004". If it sticks out more, use two gaskets. This is very critical for a leak free joint. If this measures ok, you haven't got much to lose by just leaving the hub on as it is, & replacing all of the studs & lug nuts, O rings, & paper gaskets. Have a shop with a press remove & replace the studs. Put it back together & see if it still leaks. How tight & uniform were the lug nuts before you took it apart?

You said that the oil does not seem to be coming from the inner hub seal. If you do the outer part first & it still leaks, you haven't wasted any parts & can still do the hub bearings & seals if needed. If this is the case,
I "suggest" that you get new bearings, & seals. Take the hubs & bearing spacer rings to a "good" shop & have things fitted properly.
D
 
Thanks. Dave. I got it all apart except the bearing. I cannot figure out how to remove it. (help?) There seems to be a good seal inside the flange. I was expecting to see a flaw which would cause the leak. I've ordered all the parts today from Moss. I'll check the parts stores to see if they rent or loan the 2 13/16 socket. At $23.00 I don't want to screw up the new nut.
Interesting.. this nut screws the normal way, clockwise tight. It is on the right side of the car and the wheel hub nut goes the opposit way. Moss list right side and left side nuts. Could the PO switched them????
 
My seals did not look bad, they were just "tired" after 35 years of holding the diff oil back. New seals did the trick. As I recall, the old bearing has to be pressed out by pressing through the flange. The only thing to press on is the inner bearing race (this is not a good thing). That is why I recommend replacing the bearings when replacing the seal /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cryin.gif .

I would offer my $35 socket, but the one I purchased and used had a taper on the front and wasn't a good choice for the job. I made do, but I wouldn't recommend it for the job. If you purchase a socket, make sure the entry taper is short, because the flange nut is so skinny. They put the taper on the socket to make it easy to slip over a "standard" nut.


No, I did not receive an email from you in the last day or two.
 
[ QUOTE ]
I would offer my $35 socket, but the one I purchased and used had a taper on the front and wasn't a good choice for the job. I made do, but I wouldn't recommend it for the job. If you purchase a socket, make sure the entry taper is short, because the flange nut is so skinny. They put the taper on the socket to make it easy to slip over a "standard" nut.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can modify the socket on a grinder to get rid of the taper section.

Dave's advice on taking the whole lot into a shop is good. I took a different approach and it came out fine. In retrospect, it would have been less hassle and safer to take the parts to be pressed in. I just didn't think of it at the time.

When I replaced the studs (along with the bearings and seals) I used a few blocks of wood to support the flange and the studs hammered out very easily. There wasn't that much friction holding them in place. For installation, I put the new studs in the freezer overnight and then heated the flange in a shop oven to 200 degrees or so. Put the studs in a ziplock on ice to keep them cold until ready to install. 4 or 5 strong blows with a drift and a heavy hammer seated them nicely. It was necessary to put the flange back in the oven each time. I used the same hot/cold trick with the bearings and used an ABS pipe that was the perfect size to tap the outer race of the bearing into place.

Cheers,
John
 
[ QUOTE ]
Thanks. Dave. I got it all apart except the bearing. I cannot figure out how to remove it. -- I'll check the parts stores to see if they rent or loan the 2 13/16 socket.
Interesting.. this nut screws the normal way, clockwise tight. It is on the right side of the car and the wheel hub nut goes the opposit way. Moss list right side and left side nuts. Could the PO switched them????

[/ QUOTE ]
Guess you missed the part about maybe the seal isn't leaking. Anyway, full speed ahead.

The wrench is a 2 and 13/64 socket, not 2 13/16. It is 8 sided not 6 sided. Very strange tool. You can get it here, part # BCS T12, but they want $65 for it. It DOES have a nice square cut end with no entry taper & fits very well.
https://www.britishcarspecialists.com/

Don't attempt to remove the bearing. If you distort the hub even a little bit you are in real trouble. New hubs are very hard to find & expensive. Take the hub & half shaft to someone who has the right equipment & let them change the parts. I know it is a long haul to almost anywhere for you but call around till you find someone in Reno, or Sacramento that is confident they can do it without bending the hub. Personally, I would take it to Norm Nock in Stockton, same place that has the expensive wrench.


Straying a bit off topic here; Moss is correct, RH thread goes on RH side, LH thread on left side. The torque reactions are opposite on the nut from what they are on the wheel spinner. The hub nut tends to tighten with forward rotation of the wheel. The splined wheel hub applys force on the spinner that is actually backward to the direction of wheel rotation which tightens it. Don't try towing a splined hub car backward, like having the rear wheels on a dolly & the front ones on the ground. The spinners will unscrew.

----------------------------------
A partial quote from another source:
"One of the endearing mysteries of the wire wheel is that the spokes are not ... indeed, can never be ... in compression, the weight of the stationary car is suspended from those spokes which are uppermost in the wheel. when the wheel and locking cap are loosely fitted, therefore the upper portion of the outer taper is pulled firmly into contact with that of the locking cap taper, and the lower portion of the locking cap thread is in contact with that of the hub. A slight clearance then exists between the tapers at the bottom, and also between the threads at the top. As the car moves forward, a different portion of the wheel rim takes the weight, and relative movement occurs between wheel centre, locking cap and hub. The effect of this is to tighten the locking cap, and the locking action continues until there is firm contact between the tapers all round, when it ceases. The clearances involved are, of course, minute, but the locking action is nevertheless, completely positive and entirely automatic."
--------------------------------
Make sure that the axle housing surface that the seal runs on is very smooth. Polish it with a bit of crocus cloth if necessary.
D
 
Some people are "funny". Grind a tool??! AACH!!; I'd rather get a root canal! It is probably the only job that socket will ever see, BUT I can't damage a perfectly good tool!

Dave you are right; I have had two bad seals and one leaky paper flange gasket. That's how I ended up with a spare seal and bearing for my A30; The lug nuts and flange screws were loose when I bought the car. I thought it was the seal, like the BJ8. So, that's how you grow an inventory of "spare" parts....
 
[ QUOTE ]
Some people are "funny". Grind a tool??! AACH!!; I'd rather get a root canal! It is probably the only job that socket will ever see, BUT I can't damage a perfectly good tool!

[/ QUOTE ]

Gee, Thom, then you would probably break out in tears were you to see my collection of tools that have been ground down, bent, cut off, or otherwise modified over the years.
Sometimes it's the only way to get the job done! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hammer.gif
Jeff /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
BUT I can't damage a perfectly good tool!


[/ QUOTE ]
I think it's better to modify the tool (not damage) so it works "perfectly" rather than risk damaging the part. You're right, some people are funny.
 
Dave, after inspection and consideration, I've decided not to attempt the bearing removal. As you stated, the leak appears to be around the paper gasket. I don't understand how to adjust the bearing spacer to get the desired .001 to .004 protrusion. (I beleive it was greater and may have contributed to the leak). Do I move the bearing in and out to get the desired clearence? I'd prefer not to move it at all.
 
[ QUOTE ]
(I believe it was greater and may have contributed to the leak). Do I move the bearing in and out to get the desired clearence? I'd prefer not to move it at all.

[/ QUOTE ]
The .001" to .004" ring protrusion is pretty much a result of the hub machining tolerances & the bearing thickness. Also, of course, the ring thickness can vary. The pressure of the flange on the ring, when the lug nuts are fully torqued, should assure that the bearing is fully seated in the hub. If you had accurate measuring equipment, such as a micrometer depth gage, you could have the ring "surface ground" to reduce the protrusion. The whole idea is that if the ring sticks out too far the gasket will not be compressed to seal. You want the gasket to be fully compressed at the same distance that the ring is in firm contact with the flange.

A typical gasket measures .010" thick uncompressed, & .004" when compressed. So if the ring sticks out more than .004" the gasket won't seal much. Since I don't know how far the ring sticks out, it's kind of a guess. "Probably" adding an additional gasket or even two, might do the trick. Use the Hylomar HPF on all gasket surfaces.

I really wish that you could get an accurate measurement on the ring. There must be someone in town that has a micrometer or dial depth gage?

I went through this same drill three times before I finally got a good flange seal. Even needlessly replaced the inner seal.

To endlessly repeat, the lug nuts must be evenly torqued to 50 ft-lb for things to work.
D
 
I don't even have to see them... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cryin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cryin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cryin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cryin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cryin.gif

I couldn't agree more: "I think it's better to modify the tool (not damage) so it works "perfectly" rather than risk damaging the part."

It still pains me greatly. This is also how new improved tools get invented. So, you all now know one of my "funny" quirks, someday, I'll know yours...
 
[ QUOTE ]
It still pains me greatly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thom,

I do understand where you are coming from. I treat my tools extremely well. If the need arises to "modify" I surely wouldn't do it to my SnapOn or Craftsman tools. Buying used or lower quality tools at garage sales, swap meets, Harbor Freight, etc. become good candidates for altering. I also have access to a lathe and mill which allows me to make my own custom tools when required or to modify them accurately. Give it a try sometime ... we all need to work on our phobias! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Cheers,
John
 
Thanks all. But back to the leak.
Please excuse my stupidity on this subject but I'm now woundering how the oil got there. I'm not farmular with axles but there doesn't appear to be a seal between the gears and the half axle. Then why isn't the hub filled with oil? I doubt it all leaked out. There wasen't all that much on the garage floor. Is the half axle shaft bathed in oil? (I'm still waiting for parts. The first batch were miss marked and had to be sent back. So, I've got time to agonize over trivia.)
 
Yes, the half shaft axle can be bathed in oil. Often there is oil in the hub. It depends on the oil level in the differential & side to side G forces sloshing oil to the outsides of the housing. The inside seal prevents oil in the hub from leaking out on the inside & the paper gasket prevents oil from leaking out of the hub to half shaft flange joint. The flange gasket has the harder job due to centrifugal/centripetal force trying to throw the oil out. If everything was once sealed & you later notice oil on the outside of the brake drum, it is a sign that the lug nuts have loosened & let this flange seal leak.
D
 
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