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Dodge Challenger. Yes, Dodge Challenger.

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Wasn't the new T-bird really just a Jag clothed in Ford?

[/ QUOTE ]Or has Jaguar just become a Ford in expensive British clothing? I thought the T-Bird was built on a Lincoln platform with a Mustang 4.6L engine.

We've recently gotten a retro Mustang, MINI, Beetle, and Ford GT. We've also had late 20th-century interpretations of the Cobra (Viper) and Lotus Elan (Miata) and the retro-look Prowler and PT Cruiser. Now we are about to get a retro Challenger and Camaro. The 300C, GTO, Charger, Impala, and Malibu don't really count because they are not "retro" except for their names. They are just "badge-engineered" production cars.

Notably absent from this list is a retro Corvette. Interesting that, to date, GM has left their only sportscar alone. Each new model is advertised as more modern (better?) than the last (C6>C5>C4, etc.) and not more "retro" than the last.

Almost seems like the Big Three think that niche or "boutique" cars are a way to draw customers into their showrooms. Sammy, are they trying to build different/retro models to remind buyers of the glory days of the U.S. auto companies, ie., pre-OPEC/pre-Japanese invasion muscle cars? And, how big is the Midwestern/WWII veteran customer base of buyers who have sworn to never buy a non-American or Japanese- or German-built car? My guess it's a base that is too old to be interested, or too poor to afford, the new boutique cars anyway.

Are empty-nest baby-boomers the intended market? If so, how many Challengers and Camaros will that market support? And that raises another question. Did Chrysler really make a significant profit on the Prowler or Ford on the new T-Bird? Were baby boomers the primary buyers of those two boutique cars?

All-in-all, I like some of the retro models and really dislike others. Would I buy any of them? Maybe, but doubtful, especially if I could get my hands on a new Lotus Elise! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
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Would I buy any of them? Maybe, but doubtful, especially if I could get my hands on a new Lotus Elise!

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I gotta agree whole heartedly with that comment.
 
If I were in the market for a new car,I'd consider the Challenger.Of course,when it came down to spending the money (36K?),I'd have to really think it over.
I rented a 2005 Mustang last summer.I really liked the styling,but wasen't overly impressed with the seats.Granted,this was a V6,but was just "trasportation"
when driving around.
If I could justify the money,I'd buy a Lotus.

- Doug
 
Recently went to a Nissan "Grand RE Opening" event... front lot was an array of the two-seaters. From the number of 'em you'd have thought they were $2.00 apiece. Funny thing was, as the evening progressed there were things like a new Mustang, a new Daytona, a C6 and other of the "Detroit" makes rollin' thru this lot... The competition were parading thru! T'was like the ol' "Crusin' the Drive-thru" days. Couldn't help but find it amusing.

On first arrival I got to play "lot lizard" and when a "sales associate" approached I asked what the GVW was on one'a the Z's... he had to dig thru three of his "pointy-talkie" pamphlets to FIND it. I consider THAT amusing as well: does nobody ASK the pertinent questions?
 
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We've recently gotten a retro Mustang, MINI, Beetle, and Ford GT. We've also had late 20th-century interpretations of the Cobra (Viper) and Lotus Elan (Miata) and the retro-look Prowler and PT Cruiser. Now we are about to get a retro Challenger and Camaro. Notably absent from this list is a retro Corvette.

Almost seems like the Big Three think that niche or "boutique" cars are a way to draw customers into their showrooms. Sammy, are they trying to build different/retro models to remind buyers of the glory days of the U.S. auto companies, ie., pre-OPEC/pre-Japanese invasion muscle cars? And, how big is the Midwestern/WWII veteran customer base of buyers who have sworn to never buy a non-American or Japanese- or German-built car? My guess it's a base that is too old to be interested, or too poor to afford, the new boutique cars anyway.

Are empty-nest baby-boomers the intended market? If so, how many Challengers and Camaros will that market support? And that raises another question. Did Chrysler really make a significant profit on the Prowler or Ford on the new T-Bird? Were baby boomers the primary buyers of those two boutique cars?



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The Big Two-and-a-half are definitely building cars for the baby boomer empty nest crowd, and they are definitely image cars to bring people back to the dealerships.

Baby boomers certainly have the money, but most demographic/psychographic analysis shows that they like luxury over sport in their primary driver. With a large percentage of modern homes coming with three garage spaces, baby boomers now often have a third "fun" car, but it doesn't tend to be a new mass-production car, rather a hot rod, classic or Miata/Boxster type summer vehicle.

160,000 Mustangs were sold last year. That's below the levels of 1988. In 1988 211,225 Mustangs and just slightly over 100,000 Camaros were sold. This is at a time where there were no Miata, Mini, Lexus, Infinity, Boxster or competitive Z car -- heck Porsche almost shut-down shop in 1993 due to a lack of sales!

The competition is so high, that it's unlikely that Mustang can maintain 150,000 units, while the Camaro does the 100,000 it used to and the Challenger 50,000. (Remember GM decided 75,000-100,000 was not enough to justify the Camaro in its lineup!)

As for WWII midwestern types, I would say that Detroit has been counting on them for way too long. Keep in mind that the youngest WWII veterans are about 78 years old. The last new car is generally purchased before 75 years old. I used to laugh because the average age of a Lincoln Town Car buyer is 73 years old...so the slogan should be "The last car you'll ever own...REALLY!"

And the "never buy foreign" crowd has been counted on for so long, it's the reason for the current state of affairs. Considering that Chrysler is owned by Germans and made in Canada and Mexico, most don't consider them American. GM has been building cars in Canada for a long time, and more foreign-owned plants are building cars in America than American plants.

Chrysler lost its shirt on the Prowler...and Ford lost tens of millions on the last gen T-bird (which proved to be a lesson in how not to market and sell a low-volume car.)

I would also argue that the Mini is NOT a retro car, because it was in production until two years prior to the new car, which was modernized. It's only retro to us, because we haven't had them in the States since 1964.

Oh, and every time a new gen of Corvette comes out, there are always two or three styling cues that are created specifically to be retro (like the C5's grab handle or the C6's pronounced double-bubble roofline.)

The bottom line to the Big Three is that they compete mostly against themselves in their own minds. Ford competes against GM and Chrysler, and they worry so much about each other that Toyota, Honda, Hyundai and soon the Chinese are eating them up.

Again, I have nothing against the Challenger, Mustang or retro in principle. (Although I don't call the Challenger and GT "retro" -- I call them replicas or resto-mods, because they fundamentally are made to look -exactly- like another car with a few modern hot-rod touches.)

But if they wanted to save their companies, they'd start building four great vehicles: a Sienna/Odyssey beater, an Accord/Camry beater, a Lexus ES/BMW3 series beater, and an Lexus LS430/BMW750/MercS550 killer.

Then the other image cars are easy!
 
Jerri just keeps telling me that Corvettes, the new T-Birds, and the new Chrysler retro cars aren't "Age appropriate" for me...I just might show her "Age appropriate"!! hehehehe
 
[ QUOTE ]
On first arrival I got to play "lot lizard" and when a "sales associate" approached I asked what the GVW was on one'a the Z's... he had to dig thru three of his "pointy-talkie" pamphlets to FIND it. I consider THAT amusing as well: does nobody ASK the pertinent questions?

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well, no. It seems that most people buying new cars think that HP is the only thing that matters. Not where in the power band it develops this power, or how much torque the engine developes or where in the power band this torque is made. Nor do some of these people care on how much the vehicle weighs...
 
Yeah, mostlike: "My neighbors/co-workers/peergroup are gonna be SOOO envious..."

Jerks. MY anger comes 'cause we will collectively suffer for the short-sighted attitudes (or already ARE -- see Sammy's last) of both manufacturers AND buyers. "Detroit" is already dead, they just ain't had th' decency to lie down yet. That's just my simplistic way of seein' it.
 
yeah... it's that more = better thing that's taken over so many mentalities ...
 
I suppose I'm one of the ones in the minority here. Does it look great? Yes... But's its a near exact copy of the original; My four year old son could have come up with that! At least with the Camaro concept and the Mustang, they did have the imagination to evolve the design. Retro or not, it takes a great design to sell as well as the Mustang has. As far as the Ford GT, yes it's a near copy too, but it's a niche car, so it's easy to get away with.

Here lately, I've been really concerned with the American auto industry; they have so many different problems on so many different levels it's not funny. They really need to stay away from the high dollar niche players on concentrate on the bread and butter.
 
I have no problem with immitating a good design to a certain degree. Morgan has barely changed in 50 years and no one gives them any flak because they look good. The Ford GT was a gorgeous car then and it's a gorgeous car now, despite how similar they look. It's a timeless design!
 
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Jerri just keeps telling me that Corvettes, the new T-Birds, and the new Chrysler retro cars aren't "Age appropriate" for me...I just might show her "Age appropriate"!! hehehehe

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The last time I checked, Corvette had an average buyer of age 52...the PT Cruiser was about the same (I haven't seen a number in a couple years.) The T-Bird was expected to be higher 50s (56-58,) but I never saw a demographic number.

My feeling has always been: buy what you like, not what others say you should buy.
 
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My feeling has always been: buy what you like, not what others say you should buy.

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So, Sammy, I've got your permission to buy that new Bugatti?

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/jester.gif Mickey
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My feeling has always been: buy what you like, not what others say you should buy.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, Sammy, I've got your permission to buy that new Bugatti?

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/jester.gif Mickey

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely -- I'll bring my helmet, and we'll see what life is like at 268MPH! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
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