TR2/3/3A Dizzy dizzy - TR3A - Lucas 25D

[NutmegCT]

Further to my question on setting the timing -

Several folks have suggested my distributor may have been installed "out of step" with the engine. Getting timing set requires *way* more rotation of the distributor than should be needed, I'd think. The initial question was - why won't my engine idle smoothly below 1500rpm.

Following Art's technique of matching TDC on cyl#1 and then rotating the dist, with a test light between the coil and ground, here are pictures of (1) the way my dist was oriented to the engine when I received the car, up until a few days ago.

The second picture is the amount of rotation needed to get that test light to come on. Note I had to disconnect the copper vacuum line to be able to rotate the dist enough.

Also, here's a link if you want to read the entire thread:

https://www.britishcarforum.com/bcforum/u.../gonew/1#UNREAD

First picture is the way the distributor orientation was when I got the car, and up until a few days ago. Second picture shows the amount of rotation needed to "get the test light on".

Does the second picture give evidence that the distributor was not "set in place" properly? Does it need to be completely removed and re-matched to the dog/gearing?

Thanks.
Tom

 

[piman]

Hello Tom,

my initial thought is that you are turning the distributor the wrong way; it was running, albeit roughly at position one. Moving as much as you have as in photo two is almost to the next cylinder.
Am I correct in thinking the distributor rotates clockwise looking down on it? Anyway use the distributor cap as reference, is the rotor as shown orientated for number one cylinder then the distributor needs to end up so that when the cap is fitted it lines up number one pole and the rotor arm.
I feel certain that when you fit the cap the vacuum advance will be near to your photo one position for the rotor to align to number one pole. Remove the cap and rotor and see where the rotor shaft cam is relative to the points heel. My feeling is you will need to rotate the distributor clockwise to be able to set the points with the light at your static timing point? (4degrees BTDC?)

Another way of looking at it is to set the car as it was, i.e. photo 1, turn the engine backwards to about 60 BTDC number one firing, put you light on and slowly rotate the engine until the light goes out and check what timing you have. I'm guessing you will find it much more advanced than the 4 degrees or whatever it should be?

Alec

 

[piman]

Hello again Tom,

as you may have gathered from my earlier post in your other thread, I'm a believer in strobe lights. Just hooking up a strobe before any adjustment would show you what you have, and also what effect turning the distributor has. That way you get used to which way to turn it to advance or retard the timing.

Alec

 

[NutmegCT]

Alec - thanks for the reply. To answer your questions -

The distributor of course can be rotated either way (to advance or retard). In the first picture, the engine is at TDC (pulley hole under timing point), compression stroke on cylinder 1, and the test light is off.

Per Art's instructions, "if the test light is off, turn the dizzy CCW until it just goes on". So I have to turn it CCW as far as shown in picture two to get the light to just go on. That seems *way too far* to me.

The distributor rotates CCW looking down on it. The rotor in both pics is set to contact the cylinder 1 post.

Not sure I follow you with "My feeling is you will need to rotate the distributor clockwise to be able to set the points with the light at your static timing point? (4degrees BTDC?)" Isn't that the opposite of Art's technique?

Thanks again.
Mystified Tom

 

[NutmegCT]

OK gang - I'm losing it (even more).

I just took at look at Art's original outline for timing (original thread, 7:55am EDT). It says "5. If the test light is on, turn the dizzy CCW until the light goes out, and then turn it back (CW) until it just goes on.
If the test light is out, turn the dizzy CW until it just goes on."

Now the weird thing is ... On July 6 I actually printed out that post to take to the garage when I started doing the timing job. The printout I have says "5. If the test light is on, turn the dizzy CW until the light goes out, and then turn it back (CCW) until it just goes on.
If the test light is out, turn the dizzy CCW until it just goes on."

I realize my eyesight (and brain) are rapidly fading, but help me out here guys ...

Art - did you by any chance edit that first post? I've been following the original post hardcopy all this time - have I been doing this backwards for the last three days?

wonga wonga wonga

Chain me to the wheelchair and roll me into the padded cell guys. It's time for my little blue pill.

t.

 

[Brooklands]

OK gang - I'm losing it (even more).

...

Chain me to the wheelchair and roll me into the padded cell guys. It's time for my little blue pill.

Tom,

I feel for you buddy. My mind spins whenever I start to try something minor, so I have not tackled more than body hardware and air cleaners so far. I remember having the mechanic do "points and plugs" on my 240-Z, but basically I still am reading a foreign language on this stuff. I keep reading everyone else's trials, and hope that when the weather starts to change, I will have the nerve to try stuff as well.

Keep posting what you are doing and help me gain my confidence in the next few months...

 

[martx-5]

Per Art's instructions, "if the test light is off, turn the dizzy CCW until it just goes on".

The distributor rotates CCW looking down on it. The rotor in both pics is set to contact the cylinder 1 post.

Mystified Tom

OK, I know what the problem is, and those pictures solidified it for me. When I first made the post about setting the static timing, I wan't so sure about which way the distributor turned, and even asked in the post whether I had the CCW--CW correct. Well, it appears I didn't.

If you're saying that the distributor rotor turns CCW while cranking the engine, then substitute CW for CCW, and CCW for CW in the instructions.

I'm on my way home in a few minutes, and I'll grab my distributor in the basement and verify all of this.

 

[martx-5]

OK gang - I'm losing it (even more).

I just took at look at Art's original outline for timing (original thread, 7:55am EDT). It says "5. If the test light is on, turn the dizzy CCW until the light goes out, and then turn it back (CW) until it just goes on.
If the test light is out, turn the dizzy CW until it just goes on."

Now the weird thing is ... On July 6 I actually printed out that post to take to the garage when I started doing the timing job. The printout I have says "5. If the test light is on, turn the dizzy CW until the light goes out, and then turn it back (CCW) until it just goes on.
If the test light is out, turn the dizzy CCW until it just goes on."

I realize my eyesight (and brain) are rapidly fading, but help me out here guys ...

Art - did you by any chance edit that first post? I've been following the original post hardcopy all this time - have I been doing this backwards for the last three days?

wonga wonga wonga

Chain me to the wheelchair and roll me into the padded cell guys. It's time for my little blue pill.

t.

You're not going nuts NUTMEG...I edited that post, but did it immediately AFTER POSTING IT. I thought I had the CCW-CW thing backwards...

If you look at the post I made just before this, you will see that I discovered this error. I should have never edited the darn thing.

 

[RedTR3]

Hey Tom,

I agree with Alec - if you can get it running, put a strobe on it and see where your timing is. You can see if you are in the right ballpark.

Tim

 

[martx-5]

OK gang - I'm losing it (even more).

I just took at look at Art's original outline for timing (original thread, 7:55am EDT). It says "5. If the test light is on, turn the dizzy CCW until the light goes out, and then turn it back (CW) until it just goes on.
If the test light is out, turn the dizzy CW until it just goes on."

Now the weird thing is ... On July 6 I actually printed out that post to take to the garage when I started doing the timing job. The printout I have says "5. If the test light is on, turn the dizzy CW until the light goes out, and then turn it back (CCW) until it just goes on.
If the test light is out, turn the dizzy CCW until it just goes on."

I realize my eyesight (and brain) are rapidly fading, but help me out here guys ...

Art - did you by any chance edit that first post? I've been following the original post hardcopy all this time - have I been doing this backwards for the last three days?

wonga wonga wonga

Chain me to the wheelchair and roll me into the padded cell guys. It's time for my little blue pill.

t.

You're not going nuts NUTMEG...I edited that post, but did it immediately AFTER POSTING IT. I thought I had the CCW-CW thing backwards...

If you look at the post I made just before this, you will see that I discovered this error. I should have never edited the darn thing.

Actually, now that I re-read my intial post, I did edit it so it was/is now correct...it was the first version that I had wrong. I don't think ten minutes went by before I edited that post. I should have made a notation of what was edited, and save you a lot of grief. I apologize for this.

When you posted the pics of the light on and off and the postion of the distributor I thought I had the write-up wrong. Well, I did, but I thought it wasn't long enough to make any difference. Nutmeg, you just grabbed that bogus info too quickly. I feel like I should be drawn and quartered. /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cryin.gif

 

[NutmegCT]

LOL - talk about bad timing (sorry, also a bad pun) ....

If I hadn't been so quick on the trigger to print out that first post I would have had the job done in half an hour. I acted too fast without bothering to check the details - sounds like my first marriage.

Yeehaa! I followed the *correct* instructions and it runs like a top. You guys with experience would have caught the slip immediately, but this ol' retired schoolteacher is still reading "The Dummies Guide to Dummies Guides".

Still need to play with the vernier, but it's set at 4BTDC now. Smoooooooth.

Thanks Art for *all* the info. That technique for setting the timing is excellent, even if a few minor tidbits were reversed.

Tom

 

[martx-5]

OK, so we all agree that the version that is currently in the previous thread is right. Again, I'm sorry about the screw up, but I thought I caught it soon enough where there wouldn't be a problem. Next time, I will leave the edit notations and what they were, especially with something like this. As soon as I saw those pics you posted, I knew SOMETHING was amiss.

Again, I apologize for putting you through this for three days. None of it's your fault. All of this lies on my shoulders.

So, it's running nice and smooooooth now. What's with the high idle situation??

 

[NutmegCT]

IT'S ___ THE ___ LINKAGE !!!!!!

So I've got the timing set to 4BTDC. Idle was back to 1200rpm when throttle screw was full out.

Punched the throttle and opened up to around 2500. Let it drop - back to 1500, then slowly to 1200.

As many of you suggested long ago - Tom - check the throttle linkage.

So I watched the tach as I pulled *up* on the pedal.

Idle dropped to 600 and stayed there. STAYED THERE!

The problem is somewhere in the linkage. I've wiggled all the joints and sprayed silicone lube. Much better, dropping now back to around 800, but there's some bindup somewhere in that box over the tranny hump where the gas pedal horizontal link (at the pedal) goes into. Still another slight rpm drop when I pull that pedal up.

I'm gettin' there.

Tom

 

[TR3driver]

Re: IT'S ___ THE ___ LINKAGE !!!!!!

I probably should have mentioned this before ... Don't crank down too hard on the pinch bolt ! The dizzy casting is fragile and it's easy for the clamp to crush it.

Just a thought about your linkage binding; on mine the little round pivots were worn so egg-shaped that they would bind.

 

[NutmegCT]

Re: IT'S ___ THE ___ LINKAGE !!!!!!

Randall - thanks for the pinch bolt warning. I went right to the garage and loosened the bolt one turn (man, talk about paranoid ...).

I'd bet the round pivots on my linkage are really worn. Is pulling the linkage assembly one of those "you should only do it as a last resort" things? Or is it relatively straightforward without risking destruction of things? I'm thinking primarily of the "pedal through the firewall" part, as well as that vertical linkrod.

Thanks.
Tom

 

[Don Elliott]

Re: IT'S ___ THE ___ LINKAGE !!!!!!

Leave the ones that are on the car and order some new ones. Most suppliers have the full rods and end bits. Then when you get the new ones, change them. No point pulling them apart now and not having any driving fun for two weeks.

 

[TR3driver]

Re: IT'S ___ THE ___ LINKAGE !!!!!!

It's been a long time, but I don't recall any drama with the linkage pivots. There should be a piece of lockwire through the slot on the end that you'll have to remove, then unscrew the slot a few turns so you can pull the rod end off the ball and see what it looks like. It's best if you don't undo the screw all the way, but if you do, be sure to hunt down the spring and distance piece that will fall out (as well as the screw itself).

Don't recall for sure now, but the flats on the balls might be a Whitworth size. I just used a small Crescent wrench on mine.

I've never done the "pedal through the firewall" bit myself; but from what I've heard, it's significantly more difficult. Honestly, I don't see how it could bind either, unless the rod is so badly bent that it hits the body when it turns.

 

[TR3driver]

Re: IT'S ___ THE ___ LINKAGE !!!!!!

So I watched the tach as I pulled *up* on the pedal.

Idle dropped to 600 and stayed there. STAYED THERE!

Tom, I think you're probably on the right path; but wanted to mention another possible bind to watch for. At one time, my carb bushings were so worn that the throttle plates would bind on the bores. The front bushing of the front carb was the worst offender, but they were all pretty bad.

 

[Geo Hahn]

Re: IT'S ___ THE ___ LINKAGE !!!!!!

You may be able to restore smooth linkage action by rotating the 'ball' of the linkage 90 degrees. I did this by introducing a thin washer under the ball's hex end. In my case the linkage would sometimes pop out under full throttle... not any more.