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Cylinder hea removal project

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pdplot

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Expert friend came over, finished the removal of manifolds, etc. but now - no surprise - the head won't come off despite days of soaking in penetrating oil. The driver side shows a little give but the manifold side is stuck fast. We tried putting back the plugs and cranking the engine but it didn't work. Tomorrow night, he's coming back with an engine hoist. he guarantees it will work. He's afraid the rope trick might hurt the pistons or rods.

I also pulled the radiator and discovered a 2" square damaged area on the side closest to the motor - fins pushed way in and a depression about 1/2 inch or more deep. I was going to have the radiator boiled out but now I wonder if the bad area will eventually leak. Anybody have any thoughts on that? New radiators are expensive. It hasn't leaked up to now. We'll also rebuild the carbs and Randy wants to put in a new fuel line - claims this one is too small. How big should the tubing be? I would imagine if it was too big, the pressure would drop with the stock fuel pump.
 
I tried using a hoist like that once ... it picked the car up without moving the head. Set it back down, lifted the head off by hand. Seems the hoist wasn't pulling evenly enough and the head bound to the studs.

Think about how much torque the engine makes when it is running, compared to how much the starter can produce. No way is the rope trick going to damage pistons or rods, they get a lot more force during normal operation.

Stock fuel line from tank to pump is 5/16 od. From pump to carbs is 1/4 od. It's not a very big engine, it can't burn fuel even half as fast as a V8.

1/2" sounds like deep enough to affect the tubes, which would call for a new core (or radiator). Based on my experience, I would also insist that they rod it out rather than just boiling it. I spent way too much time chasing overheating problems caused by gunk inside the tubes that didn't come out in the hot tank. It wasn't until the third time that I insisted they rod the radiator, and they reported that they couldn't get the rods through!

Keep a close eye on that "expert" ...
 
pdplot said:
...He's afraid the rope trick might hurt the pistons or rods...
Click to expand...

If you're just turning the engine by hand with a wrench on the crank bolt I can't imagine you could damage those. They take a worse beating 25 times every second when you're cruising down the road.
 
Examined the pushrods and rockers yesterday. Two pushrods were slightly pitted on the bottom and three rockers were worn, two with grooves I could feel with my fingernail. I would imagine this would make those valves hard to adjust properly. Would I be better off with a new rocker shaft from TRF or simply replace the 3 worn ones? And if the head ever does come off, we have the cam followers to examine. Friend wants to replace all the head studs, nuts and washers. This job can turn into a nightmare - I can see that happening...plus I have no idea what the machine shop will charge. Any guesses?
 
Last fall took my head in for magnaflux, clean, plane and install one exhaust valve provided by me after their inspection. $300. Painted it before reinstall with new studs.
 
Sounds cheap to me. I suspect prices around here in CT are higher. Everything else is.
I went to college with a guy from Cedar Rapids - Jim Handler. His father owned a Dodge Agency I believe.
 
Dodge dealer was bought out by bigger dealer a few years ago, as it seems to go with everything.
I did also take in the rocker assembly which they went through, you should probably wait to see what shop says as they are used to looking at this stuff. Machine shop that did mine is a speed shop with hot rods and fast cars sitting around, not foreign but had a Healy engine and 2 or 3 MG heads, as much as I've seen of LBC's in the last year. Going out right now to re torque it, so far so good and not running hot. Good luck to you.
 
What I did was to send the entire rocker shaft off to Rocker Arm Specialists. For about what I was going to spend on just shaft and bushings, they did all the work, replaced the shaft and all the bushings, adjusters, locknuts, springs, etc. Also resurfaced and apparently replated the rocker arms. There was one very slight "oops", one of the rockers was installed backwards, but that was obvious and easy to fix. Overall I am very pleased and would deal with them again.

How much the shop will charge depends a great deal on what you ask them to do. Each operation has a price. Last time I had a TR head done, I had them clean and magnaflux, mill off about .090", replace 4 exhaust seats, grind the intake seats and install the new valves, etc. that I supplied. Total cost was around $500.

One thing that I have found helpful when dealing with machine shops is to take two copies of a list of everything that I think should be done, plus phone numbers where you can be reached. Talk to the machinist, listen to his opinions, agree on what he is actually going to do. Then mark up both lists, and give him one. Good time to also talk about costs, too (which you can note on your copy). Helps prevent rude surprises like when I paid someone else to do a clutch job on the Stag, and the initial estimate of $500 turned into $1700!
 
Thanks, Randall & others. Good advice. I've only had 2 experiences with cylinder heads. In restoring a 1952 MG TD, I dropped off the head to a race car mechanic Joe Virag who rebuilt it for me very reasonably. The other was a 1971 Plymouth Duster (Ruster) that blew a head gasket. Working in the street in front of my house, I got the head off with no trouble - aided by my next door neighbor - installed the new gasket, torqued the head and then sold the car for $650 to the first guy who showed up.
 
I still have the original rockers, pedestals and rocker shaft that were on my TR3A when I bought it brand new. I have ground the curve back onto the rounded end of the rockers where they get impacted on the top ends of the valve stems. This is easy to do and will let you adjust your valve clearances with the feeler gauges for the next 5 to 10 years. Then you'll need to do it again.
 
Double nut the cylinder head studs and remove all the studs from the block. Head will slide off then. I have several spare TR6 radiators, cheap!

Marv
 
Don't grind them flat. Grind them to make them smooth (get rid of the side ridges) but keep the same curved profile that was there originally. I would guess that I've re-ground mine 3 times in 190,000 miles on my 1958 TR3A.
 
pdplot said:
The other was a 1971 Plymouth Duster (Ruster) that blew a head gasket. Working in the street in front of my house, I got the head off with no trouble - aided by my next door neighbor - installed the new gasket, torqued the head and then sold the car for $650 to the first guy who showed up.
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Around 1985 I was given a VW Rabbit with what turned out to be a blown head gasket (PO thought it was bad fuel injection). Also working in the street, I pulled the head and worked it back as flat as I could using a fine file! The new head gasket was still holding some 6 or 7 years later when my son graduated and sold it.

There's a video on YouTube somewhere, showing a couple of guys using a board and sandpaper to resurface a head. I didn't think of that ...
 
Radiator update. Close examination revealed damage limited to fins - tubes are undamaged. I'll straighten the fins with a fine screwdriver. My regular mechanic is backflushing with hot water. Believe it or not, there are no more radiator repair shops around here. My guy says most rads today are plastic or aluminum and pretty much unrepairable. Another dying art.
 
pdplot said:
Believe it or not, there are no more radiator repair shops around here. My guy says most rads today are plastic or aluminum and pretty much unrepairable. Another dying art.
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Wow. I knew SoCA is a Mecca for old cars, but didn't realize it was that bad. There are literally 3 or 4 radiator shops within a few miles of my house and they always seem to be busy. The one I go to usually has some interesting old iron in the shop, but there are always a lot more recent vehicles as well. They also do AC and gas tanks, but it looks like radiator work is still the majority of their business.
 
Pushed some 3/8" nylon rope in spark plug holes and cranked. Didn't seem to give at all. Tomorrow comes the engine hoist. BTW, West Marine has an amazing variety of ropes.
 
Put a nut on each stud and tap the nut fairly hard in all directions with a hammer. Then use a 2x4 block and sledge hammer on the head itself, again from all sides.Bob
 
pdplot said:
Pushed some 3/8" nylon rope in spark plug holes and cranked. Didn't seem to give at all.
Click to expand...
If it went more than a full turn, then you didn't use enough rope. It has to fill the combustion chamber.

And if it doesn't work the first time, turn the engine backwards until it stops, then hit the starter again. Repeat as necessary.
 
Update on head removal. Engine hoist on, rope in cylinders, double-nutting studs worked on about half of them, more PB Blaster, more banging and tapping, some levering with a pry bar (not under the head) and after almost two hours, the head literally flew off. We removed and discarded the remaining studs, scraped the top of the block to remove old gasket material and palced the head in a double plastic bag for transfer to a machine shop in Stratford who has done work on these motors. The cam followers were all perfect, there wasn't much carbon on the pistons which were tight in their cylinders and the valves were not burnt. I'm going to vacuum out the cylinders then using a plastic scraper, clean off the piston tops. I have the early block and head gasket so I'm going to order a gasket set and hose set, new studs, nuts and washers and whatever the machine shop says I need. Is there anything else I should do or look for? I want to thank everybody for their suggestions and help to date.
 
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