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TR6 Cost to convert a TR-6 to V8?

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[ QUOTE ]
The most intriguing swap I've seen here at BCF is a guy who's putting a BMW 325 six into a TR-6. That sounds very cool to me, but it also sounded like it would take mega-hours to finish. I can't recall the guy's name...anybody else remember?


[/ QUOTE ]

I was thinking about this one also. I can't remember who it was but it seemed like a cool project. He wanted to keep the straight 6 character of the car, since straight 6 equipped cars are getting rarer and rarer these days. Wasn't the motor from an M3? If so that would be some serious power for a TR6.
 
It was 35thbdaytr6. He seems to have been quiet lately.
 
I have seen GM 3800 V6s put into TR6s and looked real clean. They need to have the steering shaft rerouted with universal joints but does not seem too hard to do.
I like the idea of putting an aluminium block Triumph TR8 V8 in a TR6. I would be a Triumph engine and smaller and lighter. Same engine as a Rover 3.5/Buick 215. I think some later larger Rover V8s are the same basic block.
 
Wow this topic has really exploded since my last post here. Allow me to reiterate my position, and go into some greater detail. I work in a shop that has done several such conversions, most notably, and by far the nicest of which, was a 3000 Healy we droped a 302 Ford into. Turned into a beautiful car that just drives wonderfully. I have also been on board for a couple MGB conversions to V8s, and a few other things. My only concern with your idea, is that you are probably going to pay around 10 grand for a professional job. Now to your quotes for your engine rebuild, and O/D unit. Blowing 7 or 8 grand on rebuilding your 6 cylinder, and puting in an O/D seems like a big waste of money. This is not some exotic car, these are simple engines, with simple mechanics. It seems to me that you are getting yourself ripped off, and going along with it to give justification to your V8 conversion idea. If I were the mechanic you sought out for the job, the rebuild would probably wind up cost around $1000 to $1500 depending on what upgrades you felt like spending money on, and the O/D unit shouldn't cost more than about $1300. Complete engine overhaul and O/D would cost you about $3000, whereas the V8 conversion, with supension and brake upgrades would wind up costing about $10,000. I'm oorry if this isn't the answer you are looking for, but it seems to me that you are mostly seeking justification for a V8 swap. If thats what you want to do by all means do it. However, don't do it because the price would be comprable to having your 6 rebuilt and an O/D installed, because thats bull.
 
Stop! you cannot do that! Your name is not Shelby and the Triumph is not an AC nor Allard nor a Sunbeam. You can't do it. STOP!
 
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/savewave.gif
I'll Bet for $10,000.00 somebody will do it.---Keoke /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
Walter,

Not to be rude, but I doubt you can rebuild an engine with a rebore (not a hone), new pistons, rods and nitrided crank, skim the head and replace all valves, springs and rockers, then blueprint the thing for $1500 - even using stock parts - and still make a profit. The parts alone are going to cost that before you factor in the cost of labor. If I go to the trouble and expense of having the engine taken out, I'll have everything possible replaced so that I don't have to touch it, or worry that I will, for years.

If you can really do this for that price, and you can install a J type overdrive in a non-od car and recon the box for another $1300 and you warranty the work, then I'll drive or ship the bloody thing to you, pay cash and buy you a beer afterwards.

Unlike many of you I don't have the space to remove an engine and leave it sitting there in pieces while I wait for a machine shop. Especially not if I bear in mind #7 in one of the posts above (actually if I didn't one bay would free up and it would be a different story). Therefore any large scale work has to be farmed out, and I have to pay for it. I don't like it, but I'm prepared to live with it so that I can enjoy my lbc.

I'm not seeking justification for a V8 swap, I'm trying to explore it as a possibility. The stock TR6 was a car I always wanted. For a 60's car the performance isn't bad, but today it's a little anaemic. I'd like to fix that, one way or another. You say I'll pay 10k for a professional job like that's a negative. If that were the truly the case then it's a no brainer to me - 275+hp for 10k installed - no way am I going to get that out of a stock motor, and I then have a pretty, old, car that goes like stink but still looks stock and it's cost me about 20k all up with very little work or trouble on my part. And no I don't want a cobra kit car, so don't anyone suggest it.

If I start modifying it, how far do I go before it's not considered stock to a purist? I have H4 headlights and Bosch relays - is that a no-no? If I add a 5 speed is that still ok? Urethane bushings? Uprated springs? GM Alternator? Are triple carbs bad? Must I get green hoses? The list goes on.

I'd actually expect to pay considerably more for a V8 conversion than rebuilding what's there. I was trying to figure out how much more to see if it was worth it based on my own personal set of values. Before I started this thread I'd guesstimated 15k with a crate motor, a new tranny and a rebuilt diff, with about 100hrs of billable labor for a pro shop to shove them in and reinforce the frame. That was my guess though. I was looking to refine it.

The biggest problem then would be finding someone I'd trust to do the work.

And no - I've still not decided one way or the other what I'm going to do.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cheers.gif
 
Hi again Alan,

This is an interesting topic and there have been some great responses.

To try to nail down costs, I think you'd be best served talking to folks in your area and seeing what they'd charge for the conversion. For one, labor costs differ greatly. Around here, I can find a good, experienced restorer woorking out of his own small shop who will charge me $45 an hour. Or, or I can go to dealers and high end shops that charge $85 an hour. That's a huge cost range, and probably different from what you'll find in your area!

I do think this sort of thing needs to be done "close to home", so that you can check in on the work and progress. I know someone who lives in S. California and has a Corvette undergoing a very slow restoration 400 miles away in N. Calif. Heck, you'd have to take a vacation to go see how your car is coming along!

Just to get the engine/gearbox into the car, I suspect you are close with 100-150 hours of work in a professional shop. But, that might only cover the basic V8/gearbox install and I suspect there will be *a lot* more things needing to be done.

Honestly, I think you are well beyond any concerns about keeping the car stock. You said you want more zip in your car. That's the bottom line. It's your car and you can do with it what you want. From here on, I think your decision is just what level you want to take it to.

And, I'm no purist. I appreciate modified British hot rods every bit as much as the exacting concours restorations. If anything, it's my humble opinion that modifieds are more involved and can cost a lot more than stock restoration. In many respects, it's a whole lot easier to let the factory be your guide and track down original specification parts than it is to figure out what aftermarket performance parts will work and then get them to all play together well.

It's not like there aren't alot of TR6 around, with many fine and very original examples "preserving the breed". If it were a rarer model, I'd think twice.

So the question really seems to be how to get the performance you want.

It's a tough decision. There are advantages and disadvantages whichever route you choose: keep with the original 6-cylinder or install a V8.

More zip?

Certainly, a V8 conversion will accomplish that.


If it were me and the decision was to go with a V8, here in the U.S. I'd look at a Ford small block with aluminum heads. It's about the same weight as the original 2.5L 6-cylinder and can be fitted in. If I were in the U.K., I think I'd opt for a Rover 3.5-4.6L or a Stag motor, again offering about the same weight as original.

Chevy small block are another option in the U.S., but are heavier and will be harder to fit into the car. Too bad, since there is certainly no easier motor to find parts and acccessories for.

The reason I'd try to keep weight about the same is to minimize messing with the suspension setup. Once started, suspension mods can take a lot of work and experimentation to get dialed in and working right.

With the increased HP and torque of a V8, bigger brakes and frame reinforcement are pretty much mandatory. Upgraded wheels and tires will probably be needed, too, to keep that power on the ground. That might lead to some clearance issues and body work. The rear end, axles and hubs will all need to be upgraded, too. The original TR stuff isn't up to the task.

But, more zip is very possible with a hotted up 2.5L 6-cylinder, too. 150-175HP is very achievable. Actually, 200+ is possible, but at much higher cost and with trade-offs on reliability, both of the motor and the rest of the drive train.

As you know, there are many options to get a lot more ooomph out of the TR 6-cylinder motor. I won't go into the details since it sounds like you have already consider them.

Something that I haven't seen mentioned is changing the diff ratio. You probably have a 3.45:1 ratio right now. With the J-type OD fitted you could easily change to 3.7:1 or even 4.1:1, for significantly better acceleration. Of course, this comes at the cost increased cruising rpms. But, the J-type O/D can help offset that. You have a choice of 25% or 28% reduction from the O/D.

And, while you are inside the diff, you could install a Quaife or Salisbury LSD to help the car get up and go even better.

An advantage of using the 6-cylinder would be that the original gearbox, rear end, axles and brakes might all be used. Or, each could be improved as you see fit, either along with the engine upgrade or sometime in the future.

Have fun!

Alan Myers
San Jose, Calif.
'62 TR4 CT17602L
 
Philosophical considerations notwithstanding, I'll confine myself to my opinions on engineering and cost issues.

It's obviously doable. It's been done many times. A few are done well in terms of fabrication. Fewer still from an overall systems perspective, including driveline, suspension and brakes. Most of the stuff-a-V8-into-an-LBC jobs I've seen have been hack jobs, so poorly executed that the car is worth less than nothing, even without invoking any "originality" arguments. It just depends on who did it and how much thought, effort, skill and money they expended.


[ QUOTE ]
...I'm not seeking justification for a V8 swap, I'm trying to explore it as a possibility.... You say I'll pay 10k for a professional job like that's a negative. If that were the truly the case then it's a no brainer...

[/ QUOTE ]I would tend to agree. If you could get a well engineered installation by a competent fabricator for a mere $10k out-the-door it would be a great value. I haven't seen it.


[ QUOTE ]
And no I don't want a cobra kit car, so don't anyone suggest it....


... I'd actually expect to pay considerably more for a V8 conversion than rebuilding what's there. I was trying to figure out how much more to see if it was worth it based on my own personal set of values. Before I started this thread I'd guesstimated 15k with a crate motor, a new tranny and a rebuilt diff, with about 100hrs of billable labor for a pro shop to shove them in and reinforce the frame. That was my guess though. I was looking to refine it.

[/ QUOTE ]The Kit Kobras are good examples though. They don't have to be re-engineered, re-designed or modified. They need to be assembled and maybe a little custom detail here and there needs to be whipped up but by and large there isn't a lot of "hard" work. Still, I haven't seen one done well by a shop for under $40k. And I've seen some pretty mediocre work cost an awful lot more.


[ QUOTE ]
...The biggest problem then would be finding someone I'd trust to do the work...

[/ QUOTE ]Definitely the hardest part. I guess if I had spent some time hunting and interviewing there would be a handful shops out there I would consider but off the top of my head there's only one or two. I would certainly trust Troy Trepanier, not because he's famous, but because I like the way he thinks and the way his team works.


PC.
 
Alana,

You aren't being rude at all, I understand your skepticism after you have been talking to guys who like to make a 4 or 500% profit on their engine rebuilds because they are in a niche market. Allow me to itemize, but since I'm doing it at home don't expect it to be spot on. We'll start with the head, I can have a head shaved to whatever the customer wants, new valve guides pressed in, and hardend seats installed for about $55. The new valves are going to run, about $50 to $75 for an exhaust set, I usually wouldn't replace the intakes, unless they actually needed it, but would if the customer insisted, for another $50 to $75. New springs would be another $20 to $50. Thats a head done for between $125, and $255. Now onto the block, last time I bored a block a couple months ago it was $50; that was a V8 so lets say $35 for a 6 cylinder. Heres a question, why bore the block instead of pressing in new sleeves? Granted the ups the block price about $175 with the sleeves pressed in, but saves money on new pistons. Vat the block, new freeze plugs, and new cam bearings, another $60. Thats the block done for about $110 bored or about $235 sleeved. Now onto internals, since you aren't racing the car, I wouldn't nitride the crank, and I don't see a reason to replace the rods. If we bore the block instead of resleeving it we are looking about about $160 for a new set of pistons. Rings will run about $40 to $50, main bearings about $35 to $40, rod bearins $35 to $40, wrist pins $50, clips for the pins $5, thrust washer about $7. The timing chain should run about, $7, and the tensioner for it about $4. The oil pump should cost between $50 and $70 for a new one, or about $15 to rebuild the old one. a full gasket set including the head gasket should be around $90 to $110. Throw in say $35 for misc. bolts, studs, etc. Thats the internals all bought for between $323 and $418. Thats a grand total for parts and machine work around $683 on the low end and $943 on the high end. My charges for labour pulling the engine, disassembly, valve job, reassembly and dropping the engine back in is usually around $500; and another $250 for balancing and you have a total labour cost of $750. That makes the low price around $1433, and the high price around $1693. Granted that doesn't have a nitrided crank, new rods, or a hot cam in it. An O/D tranny shouldn't cost anymore than about $1300, maybe $1500 if we are desperate to get one, and my cost for putting it in would be about $200. Final price would probably be between $2933, and $3393. Like I said earlier the prices I used are guesses, but I rebuild enough engines to havea pretty good idea of what I can get parts for. I don't charge retail for parts, or for machine work, so that shaves a little off the cost for people, and I don't charge just insane amounts for labour so that adds a little savings also. As for you shipping the car to me here, that would cost way too much money, esp. when you could find a Mechanic there in New York who could do the same for you as I could. You have to remeber specialty shops charge alot more than your average mechanic, because they serve a niche market. Your Triumph though doesn't need the services of a specialty mechanic, because they are simple. Any half way decent mechanic wouldn't have a problem with rebuilding one, and would charge quite a bit less than a specialty shop. I'm sorry for the long post.
 
"You say I'll pay 10k for a professional job like that's a negative."

That would be for the labour. I don't see it as a big negative, just stating how much it would probably cost for the work.
 
I agree with your pricing - especially since you are in a cheaper area for labor - but you missed the point slightly. I want to replace everything and priced it accordingly. If it was more expensive to bore out than buy a new block then I'd buy a new block, that's the extent to which I'm talking about. (Did I mention I have shipfitters disease).

Cost effective - heck no. Worth it to me for peace of mind - absolutely yes.

No way do I want to go through this crap to find out 12 months later that something stupid like a gudgeon pin went and the top has to come off to fix it because I didn't spend an extra few bucks to replace it. The price I was quoted reflects that. Edit - rereading your post I see you do specify replacing them, but you get the idea /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

In fact in one way I'm a shop's worst nightmare - I expect perfect first time every time. I'll happily pay for it, but I'm not interested in excuses; especially for something that under different circumstances I would do myself.

That's one of the reasons finding someone I'd trust to do a V8 conversion - even with an unlimited budget - would be tough for me.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cheers.gif
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/driving.gif - for now...
 
Dan, did you ever finish your conversion? I have followed it on the web and wonder if the change from IRS to solid axle changed the character of the car's handling. Did you consider a Jag IRS or would that just have been too exotic?
To summarize some of the above postings, I think we all would drool over a good conversion. I, for one, considered it for a long time but did not have the space nor some of the skills (good welding and metal working tools). What a great feeling to come up to a Z4, a Boxster, a Z-car or any modern yuppiemobile and kick their ass all the way into the next parish (county). It just should be done right. There-in lies the rub. I say it sounds like you really are serious. Then go for it. Just do it right for your own sanity and gratification.

Bill
 
Word of caution to those doing steering shaft work. I just checked out that last pic on the website.

I knew I needed 3 pivot points to get around that V8. I tried using 1/2 universal sockets as the flex points for the steering shaft. Even though I purchased some very nice ones, the total amount of slack in them (3 sockets) turned out to be waaay too much when driving. It was like driving some type of tractor down the road =left, right, left, right..... I ended up getting the more expensive universals designed for steering systems.

Problem solved....

Jeff3113
 
I may say ignorant, really haven't read the thread..but I have hot rodded a tr6 motor and a v8. V8 built be me, the tr6 engine was built by some company in alabama. Both cars are fun, but the inline six built well with triple carbs fits the car the best fit. My engine was built at 4500 out of the box with 178 hp. Best true fit for the car. Expensive but worth it. It is much cheaper than building a v8 that can handle the power with the car. With 300 hp, you have to worry about brakes, frame, diff, and tranny...
for 10k..Good f*&n luck..

By the way if you need to know my engine builder...he's great drop me a line. Builds racing engines and knows trs.

Remember you have to pay to play...

Adam
 
Got into this one late but here goes anyway. I'm not exactly a proponent of "stock", there are plenty of nice ones but it's just not for me. I personally would never consider putting V8 into a TR6. Part of a TR6 being a TR6 is that Inline 6 and the beautiful music it makes. However, I have seen some nice conversions and if that is what the owner wants then so be it. That is why I have my own TR6 the way that I want it.

Onto your dilemna though... A cost you might not have considered is that to properly reinforce the frame you should remove the body. Not too difficult and it can be done fully dressed. Remember, you said you wanted a proper job that would be done right the first time. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif)
Also, if you want it done right the first time you don't want to bargain shop and you will want a shop that will proudly stand behind it's work. Many shops won't offer warranties on such modifications, bear that in mind as well.
Finally, if you truly do have shipwrights (fitters) disease then why would you stop with just the conversion. Strip it down and make it the color you want with the interior that you want, the suspension that you want etc... and do it to the standard that meets your desire. If you go this far then you could easily plan on spending 40K+ because you might as well be doing a full frame off "restification" (restoration/modification). Otherwise, just the conversion you could easily spend 10-15k.

Oh, and I also own a TR8, Stock...for now...

Glad to stir the pot a bit.
 
Shawn,

Your points are all well made, and I have considered most of them off and on.

I bought the 6 because I didn't want to drop a *lot* of cash on a car that's just a toy (this is relative remember); it was one on the wishlist and 1/4 the price of a XKE in similar condition.

Granted fixing the mechanicals on this one is getting into diminishing returns, but that's because I want everything done right rather than just done ok.

If I wanted to spend a *lot* of money (and I don't) on a fast old car conversion, then I'd go get the Morgan +8 conversion from Isis I mentioned in a previous post - it looks totally mad, but it's just too much money if you count the cost of the car on top of the work. If for the same price someone would do that conversion turnkey locally for my 6 and offer a 100% satisfaction guarantee, fixed delivery date and a 12 month warranty, then I *might* be interested (I looked at engine sizes - the LS6 may just fit). I agree that it would need body off, chassis strengthened and a whole butt-load of additional work, but with the car already paid for I'm dumb enough to consider it. I realize the likelihood of a shop agreeing to my terms are vanishingly small though.

Your point about bargain shopping is also one I am in total agreement with, having learned the lesson the hard way, and that's one reason that this conversion is looking like it's not going to be a starter unless I do it myself. I live in a relatively expensive area (sadly) and these days it's hard to find a place that takes pride in it's work.

Since I don't have the space for a home job, it's not happening (I can buy the necessary tools and get better at welding, but I can't put an extra bay on the garage)

Right now I'm back to looking at upgrades for the engine that's in there. It needs a rebuild. STP oil treatment has helped the smoking for the summer, but it isn't a panacea for much longer (not with my lead foot).

I think if I keep it as a 2.5, a supercharger is the way to get better power on a cost/hp basis. I've looked at the two options I found by trawling online, had no reply to enquiries to Moss and am waiting for a 3rd to be ready in the Spring.

I've spoken to a couple of shops (one LBC, one race) about rebuilding the engine to my spec, and the prices for them seem similar for what I want. I also want o/d rather than a 5 speed (so it needs to go to Quantum) and the diff is a mess (so Quantum again).

Ok so I have a laundry list of stuff for the winter. Can I get out cheaper - yes if I cut corners. By the time I finish could I get a cut and shut conversion for the same - probably.

Do I want that - no, so whatever I do will cost me regardless.

I'd still love 350hp safely though.
 
"I bought the 6 because I didn't want to drop a *lot* of cash on a car that's just a toy (this is relative remember); it was one on the wishlist and 1/4 the price of a XKE in similar condition."

That's good because the XKE would have cost easily 4 times as much to maintain. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif Just a valve adjustment can take 6-8 hours on an XK series engine when done correctly. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif And from what I've seen you could easily double the cost of the rebuild.

"I've spoken to a couple of shops (one LBC, one race) about rebuilding the engine to my spec, and the prices for them seem similar for what I want. "

No surprise there, the engines are simple enough that the difference in builing a performance motor vs. a stock motor is just the parts and degree of machine work. It bolts together the same so labor shouldn't be really that different. Superchargers can provide a good boost (hah) but there have also been a few good/well done turbo conversions as well.

"I'd still love 350hp safely though."

Safely is the key, the hard and the expensive part. Nearly like re-inventing the wheel. Good luck and have fun.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cheers.gif
 
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