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Charging System Failure

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angelfj1

angelfj1

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The Grey Lady and I just returned from "The Gathering", an annual event set in the rolling hills of northern NC. This was the Lady's first long distance trip at something less than 1500 miles round trip. See posting in Main Forum with link to photos.

During the second day the IGN light suddenly lit. It was not a flicker. It was easily noticeable in full daylight. I should explain that due to intermittent heavy showers and cool temperatures, I was running with full head lamps, heater/fan and GPS/cell phone charger. Needless to say my little Lucas generator was hard pressed anyway. I managed through the weekend by charging the battery each night. A full charge and judicious use of lights, heater, etc. got me through the day. I left for home early Sunday morning with a full charge and brilliant sunlight so headlamps were not required. However, I was somewhat anxious of the 600 mile trip before me. I realized that the ignition system did have a minimum voltage cutoff. Was it possible to male it home before the sparks stopped jumping across my vintage Lodge plugs?

Two more stops - one for fuel - and a second for biological needs (I'm now 65 years old). During the second stop, I had to turn off the engine due to security. When I attempted to re-start the engine the battery was so low it could not turn the starter. Fortunately some local chaps gave me a push and I got started.

Fast Forward - I finally arrived home at 5pm. I was dam curious! So I got the digital voltmeter and measured the battery voltage . . . . . . . . 5.86 volts - AND during the final 20 miles there was a distinct loss in power, no doubt, due to reduced spark voltage. So, there it is, empirically established that the minimum ignition voltage is something perhaps in the range of 5 - 5.5 volts, depending on many factors like temp, compression ratio, etc.

Epilogue: The failure was due to a bad resistor on the printed circuit board in the solid state voltage regulator.

https://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q159/angelfj/My_installation_1_DSC07015.jpg

I spoke to Bob at Wilton Auto Electric this morning. He said that he has determined that the resistor in question only overheats on long trips, more than 3 hours or so. He was happy to offer a quick turn-around on an upgrade. Until the unit is returned I will use my old Lucas unit. Isn't that ironic!!!
 
Frank, I can't tell if you are happy about the failure, or sad that something more 'original' hadn't failed. But in either case, that's a great ending to a nce trip. -much better than on the back of a tow truck!

Someday my car will go that far, hopefully with as few issues.

How many miles do you have on her now? What's your miles to failure ratio? I'd expect that to be climbing now.
 
Good thing you hadn't also "upgraded" the ignition system. Many of the modern electronics simply won't work at all when the voltage gets that low.

And at least in my experience, they tend to go from "running normally" to "won't run at all" in the space of a few seconds. Points degrade much more gracefully.
 
angelfj said:
Epilogue: The failure was due to a bad resistor on the printed circuit board in the solid state voltage regulator.

https://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q159/angelfj/My_installation_1_DSC07015.jpg

I spoke to Bob at Wilton Auto Electric this morning. He said that he has determined that the resistor in question only overheats on long trips, more than 3 hours or so. He was happy to offer a quick turn-around on an upgrade. Until the unit is returned I will use my old Lucas unit. Isn't that ironic!!!
Click to expand...

Frank,

Did he indicate that any future ones should be upgraded/fixed ones?

Scott
 
I would hope so. Especially since it appears to be a known weak point. Three hours of continuous driving is not that long. I suppose a higher wattage resistor would be in order. Or, you could just keep using the original. :grin:
 
Hi Jerry! Its always nice to hear from you! yes, I am very happy, but allow me to explain. I was attracted by the Bob Jeffers, Wilton Auto Electric design because it was a do once and forget improvement. It has the added benefit of stealth and can not be discovered by concours judges. Conversely, I was frustrated by the difficulty in keeping the original Lucas box in proper adjustment. Anyone who has followed the Lucas documentation can appreciate what I am stating.

To be fair to any regulating system either solid state or electromechanical, my Lucas generator was subjected to almost constant overload during this recent trip. Even a wide-open regulator can not compensate for an inadequate electrical source. With, heater fan, headlights and windscreen wipers running simultaneously, now add the enhancements I made for safety. I have added an extra brake light (incandescent) which attaches by magnets to the surface of the boot lid, just below the fuel filler. We also changed the wiring so that when you step on the brake, five rear lamps lite, that is, tail lamps x 2 + indicators x 2 + new extra brake light. These lights are all incandescent. Another change has both the tail lights and indicators flashing when making turns. We also now have true 4-way emergency flashers. In an emergency, I can flip a small toggle switch to activate the flashers. Then everything flashes, front and rear indicators and brake lights. Except for the emergency flashers which I only used once for about 10 minutes, I was constantly using other new features thus taxing the regulator , generator and battery.

To be fair to Bob Jeffers, he only recently became aware of the resistor problem in his solid state design. I suppose that most drivers using his system don't drive over 3 - 4 hours at a time but rather take their cars out for an afternoon of spirited motoring down the highway. I am anxious to get my solid state unit back from Bob. When I do, I'll provide a follow-up to this post. :smile:


Cheers, Frank

P.S. Are you going to SF for VTR? Too far for us I'm afraid. But next year, VTR 2014, will be held at the same venue as The Gathering, at Shelton Vineyards, in Dobson, NC!!!! You and Randy MUST attend.
 
HerronScott said:
Frank,

Did he indicate that any future ones should be upgraded/fixed ones?

Scott
Click to expand...


Hi Scott! No, Bob didn't say, but when I describe the circumstances, he had no doubt as to the cause. Why not give him a call. He's such a nice old guy to talk to!

Wilton Auto Electric, LLC(Bob Jeffers)
10 Stoney Brook Drive
Wilton, NH 03086-5155
603-654-9852
 
Upgrading all those lights and such, it is no wonder you don't have enough power. I know you are anal about keeping it looking original. Somewhere I saw an alternator that looked like a Lucas generator. I can't remember where though...
 
angelfj said:
To be fair to any regulating system either solid state or electromechanical, my Lucas generator was subjected to almost constant overload during this recent trip.
Click to expand...

Even though I "get" your point; I feel it is important to clarify : It is the job of the control box to ensure that the generator is NOT overloaded!
The early generator is quite capable of doing it's rated 19 amps for hours on end (later TRs have a slightly larger 22 amp unit). But it will overheat and fail if allowed (by the control box) to exceed that rating for very long.

Having the load exceed the generator output part of the time is perfectly normal. The battery takes up the difference. The important bit is that it not exceed the generator output all of the time :smile:

BTW, TS13571L is still wearing its original, 1956 Lucas generator and control box. The generator has had new bearings and brushes plus some minor repairs to the mounting points; but still works perfectly. Control box has had it's contacts cleaned and adjusted by the book; that's it. And I've got an electric fan to feed, on top of various lighting upgrades (H4 headlights, higher power brake lights, etc.)

 
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DanB Well I guess I can be considered anal, but each of us have different goals and agendas. Mine was to drive my TR3A just like it came straight from the dealer. This of course has its downside. Regarding the enhancements, like brighter lights, extra brake lights, etc, my experience has been that many if not most accidents involving LBC's are due to the other car not noticing us due to our size and minimal lighting. My new 110db air horns certainly get attention! :smile:
 
Even though I "get" your point; I feel it is important to clarify : It is the job of the control box to ensure that the generator is NOT overloaded!
The early generator is quite capable of doing it's rated 19 amps for hours on end (later TRs have a slightly 21 amp unit). But it will overheat and fail if allowed (by the control box) to exceed that rating for very long.

Having the load exceed the generator output part of the time is perfectly normal. The battery takes up the difference. The important bit is that it not exceed the generator output all of the time

BTW, TS13571L is still wearing its original, 1956 Lucas generator and control box. The generator has had new bearings and brushes plus some minor repairs to the mounting points; but still works perfectly. Control box has had it's contacts cleaned and adjusted by the book; that's it. And I've got an electric fan to feed, on top of various lighting upgrades (H4 headlights, higher power brake lights, etc.)
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Randall: This certainly got my attention. I'll continue in a pm.

Thanks, Frank
 
angelfj said:
Randall: This certainly got my attention. I'll continue in a pm.

Thanks, Frank
Click to expand...
Frank, I hope you'll keep the rest of us in the loop to some extent. I'm also intrigued by this thread, as I happen to be another one of those "anal" types who has stuck with original generators and regulators and such...and generally has had no problems in doing so!
 
angelfj said:
DanB Well I guess I can be considered anal, but each of us have different goals and agendas. Mine was to drive my TR3A just like it came straight from the dealer.
Click to expand...

Frank,

That had been my goal as well when I restored my TR4A back in the early 1980's and it was my DD for a number of years. I did add a modern radio plus separate 50W amplifier and H4 headlights and my car managed fine with the original generator and regulator even when I started commuting an hour to work each way daily. And this was my only car so it was rain, shine and snow.

Scott
 
Those dynamos were marginal with original equipment, but if mine had not burned up, I probably would have kept it original like you guys, and suffered through all that. Converting to the alternator solved a big portion of my electrical problems, but when I did it there was no kit (or not one that I knew of in 1982) so all the bracketry had to be fabricated. I think that alternator that looks like a dynamo would be cool, and it should mount right up.
 
New Development! I returned my Wilton Auto Electric control box late last week. Got an email from Bob Jeffers yesterday stating that he has tested the unit and it is working perfectly! Bob suggests that it was the generator all along.

We found a spare C39 generator.
Using jumper leads, we connected this to the car as a substitute to the in situ one.
Flashed the field.
With everything connected and ready, switched on the IGN.
Red light came on which is correct.
Using a heavy duty electric drill, we spun up the spare gen. and the red light went out.
This indicates that the spare gen. is OK and the spare original style control box is OK.

So friends, I was fooled into believing that the solid state control box caused the charging system to fail.
Hat's off to Bob Jeffers for his advice and solid product.

Tonight we replace the bad gen.
In a few days I hope to report on the autopsy of the failed unit. The field coils tested OK so I suspect a bad armature.

Stay tuned.

Frank
 
Randall, what book and where in that book is the best place for reading up on how to adjust the control box. I have not attempted that yet, but I believe mine needs it since the gauge needle bounces around a lot. Thanks!Regards,Bob
 
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