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Changing VINs

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Acquiring a new Vehicle Identification Number.

I don't know if this is a taboo subject or not but someone recently asked me if this is doable. I do know that there are people out there that can get you a VIN for a street rod because they have made a business out of accumulating old VINs from deceased vehicles and using them for newly resurrected rods with not much more than a radiator shell from the original car.
That said, what is to prevent someone from doing this with a Triumph. I could see where it would be done if one were to use a Ratco frame, new body panels, sourced engine, etc. to essentially build a new car. I could also see where this could be done with a bit of larceny if someone were trying to create something that is fake, like a TR250, or TR5, from a late TR4. The reason I ask this is I do know of a fella that can source a new VIN for a Triumph but would never release his name for obvious reasons. In fact, he knows someone who knows someone who can do it. Nuff said.

But is there a good reason that a rebuilder would need to get a new VIN and is it done in the open market legally?

With the price of these cars on the rise (witness the $94K TR4 or any big Healey or E-Type) this would seem to have merit, whether for noble cause or not.

Heck, even the Grave Digger is listed as a 1951 Chevrolet.

Guess what I am asking, when a Triumph dies and goes to Heaven, does his soul (VIN) go with him/her.
 
Bill, in Michigan, it's a 5 year felony to swap VINs. I think you can get a new number after an extensive restoration by having it titled as an assembled car.
When I was building prototypes at GM, and wanted to transfer a VIN tag to a new vehicle, there was a boatload of paperwork I had to go through, even though they were "X" VINs. (Experimental)
YMMV.
Jeff
 
Lots of new reproduction/knock offs are titled as 64 Porsche Speedster but the vin numbers are not factory copies or meant to duplicate factory numbers and the titles reflect this.
If you knowingly put an original vin on another car and attempt to represent that vehicle as original that is fraud.
If you created a Tr4 from scratch there are ways to title/vin the car but the numbers would 'modern' and the title would indicate new build/salvage/or whatever your State does.
Yes, the vin goes to heaven with their little souls unless they've been bad LBCs (crypt car?) and they may go elsewhere.
 
It has been suggested that quite a few street legal, vintage race cars, have chassis plates as their only original part.

I see nothing immoral in mixing/matching frames, bodies or anything else so long as the year/model is the same.

Some nice cars die and that is sad.
Some serial numbers can't be easily used due to red tape.

Crush or abandon a car for that reason.....I think not!
Switch the plates and enjoy!
 
[ QUOTE ]


Some nice cars die and that is sad.
Some serial numbers can't be easily used due to red tape.

Crush or abandon a car for that reason.....I think not!
Switch the plates and enjoy!

[/ QUOTE ]

That was the whole thrust of my question. Noble cause.
It's the other half that concerns me. Larceny.
 
Bill,
It is easily done, although illegal here in the UK. I recently scrapped a Triumph Herald. I still have the VIN plate and UK registration document, so all I would need to do is steal another Herald and swap the VIN plate and licence plates. Of course I wouldn't do this, but it is far too easy on our old cars.
 
Suppose I should make a citizens arrest on the owner of that D-Type next time I see him.

And confiscate his car. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
Interesting. I would have no 'moral' issue with resurrecting an LBC and putting a VIN plate on it to match year/make/model from a "lost boy"... Legally, I'm sure it'd be frowned upon though. Sad, really, when you consider chop-shop outfits have gotten away with passing junk "Frankenstein" cars off as "original" etc. Nefarious deeds likely outweigh good intent every time.
 
"Crush or abandon a car for that reason.....I think not!
Switch the plates and enjoy!"
I don't think that was the situation. If you have an original frame with stamped vin you have a 'vehicle' that can be titled. You can recreate the original plate with the vin.
He's talking about creating a vehicle that never left the factory as a unit.
Many recreated historic racers have an original stamped item, frame etc that allows registration but there are many lawsuits out there (I know two high end Ferraris claiming the same vin) because of this practice and both were sold as 'original' and there in lies the problem. International certified historical 'papers' are easily sourced from some Euro countries (Spain) for cash and that intensifies the problem.
By all means make a car and get a legal vin. If you have a vehicle needing restoration it's not too dif to investigate and find the proper vin.
If you swap vins from vehicle to vehicle could be you'd get away with it but it is chancey.
 
I'm fairly sure that this act would be considered illegal in most states. That being said, I understand that this would not be being done to coverup anything illegal, but I do not believe the state DMV sees it that way. Plus, you have to consider if in the furture you try to sell this car as a collectible and someone does a vin. check. The numbers may not all match. Example: I bought a 73 Mustang conv. (soon to be the next Mustang collectible) The car was in poor condition and didn't run when I got it. The P.O. stated to me that the Vin plate matched the title, but wasn't the proper Vin.# for a convertible. He bought that way and the title showed it also. Very open and honest about it. I figured O.K. I have a title, it matches the Vin. plate on the car, everythings good. I bought it and restored it. I sent the title in to be changed into my name, no problem, so I now have a title with matching Vin. in my name, all's good. While doing the restoration, I found the build sheet and several hidden body Vin. numbers. True, they did not match. Somewhere in this cars past, the Vin. was changed to a title for a hardtop. So far, doesn't sound like a big deal!!!!. I restored the car and drove it for several years as a summer daily driver. I decided to sell it to purchase my 2nd TR3. I wasn't trying to sell it as a numbers matching car and told the 40-50 people the inquired about it that it was a good driver and not a show car and that the Vin. does not matchup for a convertible. It became a NIGHTMARE. After several months of people coming out and loving the car, but because of the Vin. difference either offering me dirt for the car or walking away cause the numbers did not match, I finally just took it off the market and kept it. Oh, by the way, I was only asking $7000 for a restored, driver, 73 convertible Mustang, so I wasn't trying to get $15000 for a show quality collectible. Anyways, this is just something else to think about if you don't do it legally and decide to try a get big money for it down the road.
 
I've got a bit af a dilemma in the restoration of my TR3 concerning the VIN's. MY original car is a TS23677L. The body is being totally replaced by a VIN TS74xxxL. The newer body, being a post 60,000 car certainly does not match the original VIN, and also, there are many other things that have to be changed to mate up with this body. This car will be more post 60,000 then pre. How do I register this thing? In New York, both of these cars pre-date when titles were needed, so no title is neccessary.

I personally don't care much either way, But anyone who knows TR3's, will peg this as a post 60,000 car just by looking at it, and I feel that registering it as TS74xxxL would be more appropriate. What do you guys think??
 
Go with the vin on the frame. Cars get new bodies all of the time when wrecked/damaged and even if a salvage title is issued the vin # from the frame is used. Keep the records from the donar car and a photo log for any potential follow on buyer.
 
It's perfectly legal in my state to get a new VIN number. I've done it several times on different things. Now my state is quite relaxed on this when it comes trailers, old vehicles, kit cars and gathered piles of parts that become cars. Not all states are as nice.

And on the illegal side, taking the vin tag quietly off one dead titled car and placing it on another good but titless car, who's the wiser if you keep your mouth shut? No harm, no foul. Another old car lives instead of becoming scrap or a parts car. Now do make sure it's a simple job, like on a Spitfire where there's only two rivets identifying the car. On something like Ford, that VIN number is in many different places. So use some care when doing this.

Sometimes it's nice to have all your cars sharing the same vin number. Keeps insurance costs down.
 
Went through this in NY and CT - NY requires a title - Oh! no title? then you will need a signed bill of sale and a signed notarized affidavit claiming ownership from you and the previous owner along with a pencil tracing or photograph of the VIN plate mounted in your car. You should go to DMV ahead of time and explain your rebuilding situation and they will supply you with all the paperwork. I wouldn't get into the 2 different VIN numbers because one's considered a parts car or a future rebuilder and that might confuse them. You do the registration based on the VIN (Commission Number) you have on the body. It's pretty painless but the paperwork is time consuming. (especially if you don't know a notary) You will need to use the post 60K VIN if that is what's mounted on the body. That is what the inspection repair facility is also going to look at when they inspect your car. The inspector or mechanic is going to want to see another matching VIN somewhere else on the car. Unfortunately, there isn't one and you might want to bring a long a Bentley Manual proving that fact. NY and CT DMV will also do a national search on your VIN number so make sure it's clean and doesn't come up as a stolen car. If you don't hear back from them in three months consider yourself to have a clean VIN.

Good Luck it's an experience in frustration I do not wish on anyone! I had to go back to DMV NY three times because each time I would get someone different and they each had there own method to the required forms madness. Whatever you do don't get mad and just keep smiling.
 
Hey All, I had an experence here in wyoming with something similer several years ago. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif I was going to reg. a supra that had been a friends junkyard for about 6 months. He had a clear title to it but the vin was wrong on the paper.(Just a clarical error in another state, too meny #s /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif) But I had to have someone(shareiff) look at the car and fill out a paper saying that he had seen the real car and that all was good. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif After this + a signed bill of sale, thay retitled the car in my name(with the right # this time /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif) and all was good. Never swapped #s, though I knew someone who did with a camper trailer. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nonod.gif Don`t know if he ever tryed to replate it. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif(He also has a criminal record by the way! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cryin.gif) But I don`t think that the state would be very happy about one doing such things. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nonono.gif Just my view though. Robbie(and the limerick tr-7 /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/devilgrin.gif) in wyoming /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grouphug.gif
 
I will also have a bit of a dilemma when it comes time to register my TR4. I bought it with a bill of sale, no registration or title. I had the seller and my mechanic both tell me that this wasn't a problem and all I need to do to register the car is to tell DMV that I've been restoring it and it has been unregister for as long as I can remember and I lost the title. Then, I'm told they will just reissue a new registration and title. All of this has me a little nervous and I've thought that I'd feeel more comfortable just buying a used TR4 parts car that has a clear title and just switching ID plates.
 
From what I see it's similar to CT and NY except authorized DMV CA staff, CA licensed vehicle verifier, authorized auto club, or peace officer who has been trained to perform vehicle verification inspections does all the verifying. In your case the seller and mechanic are correct but it sure doesn't look as easy as they describe.

Go to the California DMV web site and check it out for yourself.

https://www.dmv.ca.gov/

Nice tunes!

This is the complete list of registration checklists pick one that applies to you.

https://www.dmv.ca.gov/forms/vr_checklist.htm

Have fun!
 
[ QUOTE ]
Bill, in Michigan, it's a 5 year felony to swap VINs...

[/ QUOTE ]

Do they have an auto shop? 5 years should be about right for a thorough TR restoration, especially if you have the time (i.e doing the time).

Seriously, people building up a car from just a part of the original car is a problem for the rarer marques like a Lotus Seven or such... sooner or later you get 2 guys with the 'same' car. But for TRs merely using a VIN from one, parts from 2 or 3 and such shouldn't be too much of a problem.
 
I'm not sure about Calif., but I know that in Ill. to apply for a duplicate title (lost title), the old title has got to have been registered and in YOUR name before they will give you a dup. title. If it is an older car, maybe going to one of the state auto inspection sites and having a officer check your Vin. it might work, but with my 73 Mustang, I tried to have them verify that the car was not stolen and the Vin. was registered in my name and they told me they wouldn't even look at it and told me "if the Vin. matches the title, everything is good". They were no help at all. I did finally get a cop friend of mine to run both the title and plate Vin. and the Vin.#s I found on the frame and the title Vin came back in my name and good. The frame Vin. did not even register. So all appears to be good. It can get very sticky with these Vin. tags.
 
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