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tahoe healey

tahoe healey

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I was told to adjust the camber on my BJ8 to 1 degree negative. The camber adjustment is not standard but purchased from British Car Specialist 12 years ago and set by them. The question is: does negative camber mean the upper portion of the wheel/tire is moved in at the top? The Bentley manual shows a diagram with it in at the bottom.
TH
 
tahoe healey said:
... does negative camber mean the upper portion of the wheel/tire is moved in at the top? ...
Click to expand...

Yep. Camber is negative if the top of the tire/wheel slopes in (toward the engine) from the vertical. Nominal camber setting is 1deg positive, but my BJ8 had about 3deg before I put offset bushings in the top trunnion and pulled it in a couple degrees (I suspect this is what BCS used to adjust your camber--I think I got the bushings from them). I got noticeably better turn-in after I adjusted the camber; you would probably get even better with 1deg negative (there's probably some downside, but I don't know what).
 
The theoretical downside of negative camber, would be the inside edge of the tire wearing prematurely. Given that any set of tires fitted to a Healey nowadays is more likely to dry-rot than wear out, I wouldn't give it a second thought. Besides, it's a lot more of an issue with wide (wiiiide) low-profile tires than our wagon wheels.

You can however, offset the theoretical downside, by ALWAYS taking the corners hot!
 
From what I have read the Healeys where built with approx 1 degree positive camber. That is the top of the wheel leaning out. 1 degree isn't much but is obviously more than straight up. Don't confuse camber with toe-in. With Toe-in you want the wheels pigeon toed just a smidgin. Usually about 1/8" toe-in. With too much toe you will start to cup your tires. With too much camber either positive or negative you won't cup your tires too quickly but you will wear either the outer or inner edge quicker depending on which way the tires are leaning. Race cars are usually set up for negative camber. That is with the top of the tire leaning in. So imagine going around a turn, let's say a right turn, With the left wheel set for negative camber, ( top leaning in ) as you go into the turn hot, the centrifugal g force is pushing all the weight to the outside of the turn. The weight is rolling over the left from wheel, it is compressing the suspension, and with the wheel set initially with the top leaning in, in the hard turn the suspension compressed the wheel is now straight up with maximum contact patch on the asphalt. That's why race cars are set with negative camber. The downside of negative camber is that there is alittle resistance to initiating a turn at slow speeds. The steering will feel heavier. The reason the Healey was built with POSITIVE camber was to make the car EASIER to steer into turns. Remember Austin Motor Co. wanted to sell these cars to the general public even if all Donald wanted to do was race them. Donald could set his camber anyway he wanted, but Austin needed to sell to Socker Moms. Dave C.
 
I don't think June Cleaver ever took the Beaver to soccer practice. But if Walt did owner a big Healey and June needed to take the Beav to Cub Scouts in it, she would be happy motoring along with a little positive camber. I run a negitve 11/2" camber on my vintage racer, but run my BJ8 street car with its stock camber setting. I've installed a 3/4" front sway bar with uprated stock armstrong shocks in front and rear. With the addition of 205 radial tires it turns in very well, and when push it hard, it response excellent.

 
Then why not use zero camber? Best of both worlds? I drive mountain roads and freeways. Toe in is not a problem. I have a gauge to measure it. There are those who believe "no" toe in is the way to go with the radials we use today. The reason for this discussion is a "light" feel to the steering at speed (60 to 70 mph). All shocks are good and all bushings newish and tight.
 
Well, I don't know about '0' camber. Never drove a car with that. Although I've read about suspension set ups from time to time, it seems to be some memory that any suspension spec can't be at '0' or true flat or true straight ahead. The car won't track straight, it will tend to wander. the tires need to push just alittle one way or the other so that they don't roam. That's why toe-in is Toe'd In. If the tires are straight ahead the forward momentum will push the tires out and then with a toe-out they will scrub and try to push out even more. If your car is wandering at speed I might think it is the tires, Or the steering box being loose, which is typical in the Healey. Or maybe your Camber is already set at '0'. (the Healey shock is positioned to give 1* positive when stock). One other point is that if you have gone to wider tires, maybe too wide you might find that the car is not tracking well. but then worn out wire wheels or hub splines will do that too. Dave.
 
Bob_Spidell said:
Yep. Camber is negative if the top of the tire/wheel slopes in (toward the engine) from the vertical. Nominal camber setting is 1deg positive, but my BJ8 had about 3deg before I put offset bushings in the top trunnion and pulled it in a couple degrees (I suspect this is what BCS used to adjust your camber--I think I got the bushings from them). I got noticeably better turn-in after I adjusted the camber; you would probably get even better with 1deg negative (there's probably some downside, but I don't know what).
Click to expand...

I've been running 1 degree negative camber with the Cape offset upper trunnion for years. Haven't noticed any problems wandering.
 
vette said:
Although I've read about suspension set ups from time to time, it seems to be some memory that any suspension spec can't be at '0' or true flat or true straight ahead...
Click to expand...

My dad explained it to me like this: With camber (usually positive), the wheel acts like a snow cone being rolled on its side (a snow cone, if it was solid, would roll in a circle about the tip). With positive camber, the front wheels want to (very slightly) roll away from each other. This tightens any slack in the tie rods, etc., which makes for better tracking (with negative camber, the wheels would want to roll towards each other, also removing slack).

BTW, Dad got some local press recently: https://www.modbee.com/2014/09/29/3565514_jeff-jardine-modesto-man-rekindles.html?rh=1
 
Well Bob, that's a really nice write-up about your Dad. Tell your Dad I said Congratulations for all the work and commitment. Dave
 
Bob_Spidell said:
My dad explained it to me like this: With camber (usually positive), the wheel acts like a snow cone being rolled on its side (a snow cone, if it was solid, would roll in a circle about the tip). With positive camber, the front wheels want to (very slightly) roll away from each other. This tightens any slack in the tie rods, etc., which makes for better tracking (with negative camber, the wheels would want to roll towards each other, also removing slack).

BTW, Dad got some local press recently: https://www.modbee.com/2014/09/29/3565514_jeff-jardine-modesto-man-rekindles.html?rh=1
Click to expand...
Lot's of discussion and theory on front end setup...enough to make me confused(easily done) but the bottom line guys...what's the best or correct setup for a street driven BJ8 with radial tires? I'm going to have my front end aligned this week and this is after a 5 year frame up restoration with new tires/wheels, etc. I have thought about contacting Hendrix Wire Wheel too.
Thanks!
 
Patrick, If your frame is stock and hasn't been bent, the stock position of your front shocks will give you approx 1* positive camber. That's the way most Healeys have been rolling for about 60 years. For me that is just fine. I'm not racing just cruising. And if I do push it alittle I am not concerned about that little bit more of an edge in a turn to try to win something. So the only other setting is the Toe-in which is adjustable. What ever the book says. I can't remember.
I'm sure others will possibly like other settings. Dave.
 
Interesting thread. I now understand camber (at least more than I did). What about caster?

And Bob, great article about your dad.
 
Keith_M said:
Interesting thread. I now understand camber (at least more than I did). What about caster?

And Bob, great article about your dad.
Click to expand...
Castor, the (forward or) rearward tilt of the king-pin assembly, *loads* the front wheels to encourage them to track in a straight-ahead direction. When the wheel is turned slightly, you're actually *lifting" the chassis in relation to the axle's center-line.

The best visual example of extreme positive camber is a top-fuel dragster; when the wheels (at least on the old-school front engine ones) were turned, they nearly laid over flat!

As a general rule, increasing positive castor with increase steering effort, though improve straight-line stability.

Edit: and yes, Bob, that's a great article about your dad! I know you've referenced him a few times concerning the 100 restoration, but this paints an even more ambitious picture! I hope I'm as capable in another 20 - 30 years... (gulp)!
 
Thanks Randy, this helps. As I understand it, positive caster means that the top of the swivel pin leans back slightly. In effect, you're pushing the front wheels down the road rather than pulling them. Right? Intuitively, and thinking about casters on a dolly which always rotate so that the wheel is pulled along, it would seem like the opposite situation (top of the swivel pin leaning forward) would be better for tracking, but I guess my intuition is wrong. It wouldn't be the first time....
 
I have been driving for a dozen years with the off set at neg 1 degree (So I assume. How do you check DYI one degree) set by BCS. I think I will try the original type bushes and see if I can tell the difference in the ride. I had tried a bubble level set vertical and it looked like there was no lean "in" but how can you tell one degree?
 
vette said:
Patrick, If your frame is stock and hasn't been bent, the stock position of your front shocks will give you approx 1* positive camber. That's the way most Healeys have been rolling for about 60 years. For me that is just fine. I'm not racing just cruising. And if I do push it I am not concerned about that little bit more of an edge in a turn to try to win something. So the only other setting is the Toe-in which is adjustable. What ever the book says. I can't remember.
I'm sure others will possibly like other settings. Dave.
Click to expand...
My new frame is from Jule so I'll check with Martin to see what the Camber is. I've heard that toe-in with radials should be set to "0", but I want to be sure about that or should it be set with a little bit of toe-in. I did see a set of tires once that had too much toe-in and the insides were significantly.
 
Well, out of frustration from not knowing how to and how much to rotate the off set bush, I removed the off center bushings and installed the "rubber" ones that come with the new bolts. That should put me at +1 camber as Donald designed. I really like it! Sweet at 70+mph. Then, I bubbled balanced the wheels and I have only a SLIGHT vibration at 62-65 mph. The toe in was right on 1/8 inch in.
Thanks, all. I've learned a lot.
TH
 
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