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Camber adjustment on Big Healey

bighly

Jedi Knight
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What are my options for aftermarket products to adjust camber on a Big Healey? I have cannot seem to find my old notes on this. I have already replaced to shock tower tops so I am not interested in going back there again. Ideally I would like to be able to fine tune. Some where someone sells a king pin replacement top bushing to achieve this. Once I have these I plan to take it to an alignment shop to dial in both toe in and camber.
 
Found it from Chris's site. Go Google. Still want to find all the available options in an off-set trunion though. I found the ones from Dennis Welch Racing but they look like an all or nothing set-up. My fear is that I may have one side slightly different than the other (remember I replaced the shock towers with out a chassis jig) and am after correction to near stock or 1% or less negative with an option to back out from stock to negative with little hassle.

The car handles well but does "jump" into the corner all of the sudden like which I believe is an indication of too much toe in.

So what I am looking at is wear on the outside of my tyres up front after about 15K miles. Perhaps this is normal (see below)? Perhaps I just pushed too hard when chasing Udo's lap times at Tahoe last year.

This is a street / touring car that gets periodic abuse at rallys and on empty back roads. What I did not expect was uneven wear up front. Here is the info "notes" I originally sought. I believe this came from Chris Dimmock's Black and White Healey site.

Comments?

Front Suspension, camber and tyres
------------------------------------------------------------
What do you use your car for? If you just drive it around on the street - then I can't help you too much past this point. Most big Healeys have 1 degree positive camber as standard, and about 1mm toe in - so the outer edge must be the edge that wears first in straight line driving (i.e. - lets ignore the dynamics of cornering for a minute). Negative camber and toe out will wear the inner edge in straight line driving.

If you want front negative camber - to make the front of the car 'bite' better, and grip harder - this article may help - but it will move tyre wear from the outside edge to the inside edge of your tyres if you drive around on the street.

As a tyre corners hard, the outside tyre rolls over into a positive camber situation. As you turn the wheel - the caster applies some negative camber. When you start playing with camber - your final goal is to have the loaded tyre as 'vertical' as you can get it - to get more rubber on the road under hard cornering. On a Healey, with Yokohama A008 tyres - you actually need about 8 degrees total negative camber at 20 degrees turn in to achieve a vertical, fully loaded tyre. This total required negative camber is effectively caster plus static camber. Most standard Healeys have 1 degree positive camber, and somewhere between 0 degrees and 3 degrees of negative caster..... so getting this much neg camber is a bit of a task - and most never achieve anywhere near it...

If you want to change your camber to negative - there are four methods I am aware of:

1. You can bend the front shock arms, effectively shortening them - but I wouldn't ever recommend this - no one seems to know what the arms are actually made of - or how they are made (cast? forged?) - and the metalurgy could be a bit risky. I know many guys who have done this - I won't.


2. The better way is to fit the shorter front shock arms off other british cars - Wolesley sedans are the 'best' donors I've found. If you measure the length of your shock arms, centre to centre, with the shock arms installed on the shock, and you'll find that healey ones are 'about' 216 - 218mm long - try to measure them, and you'll see why I say 'about'.... You can get shock arms off other British sedans which are around 208mm, down to about 200mm long, trunion bolt center to shock arm pivot center. About 4.5mm = 1 degree of camber - so if you have a standard Healey setup (1 degree positive camber) - and you go to 200mm Wolseley arms - you get nearly 3 degrees NEGATIVE camber. But this modification (and most modifications which change camber by 2 degrees or more) require a few other changes - like making your fixed length steering arms adjustable, so you can shorten them to match the reduced shock arm length. You can't adjust the huge amount of toe out these shorter shock arms give by just shortening the centre fixed steeering rod - you will run out of adjustment - and the steering arm and idler arm - which must always piont forwards - will splay out at up to a 45degree angle. You'll need to align the idler arm and steering arm so they are pointing straight ahead - then shorten (and make adjustable) the fixed length side steering arms. If you aren't capable of doing this yourself - do some more research - and get a qualified suspension expert to look at what you are trying to achieve.

3. Use 'camber bushes' - offset bushes on the top trunion link of the king pin. Typically - these give around 1 degree of adjustment.

4. Another option if you are starting with a bare chassis is to move your front shock locating plates 'inwards' - same scale of distances as in 2. above. If you do this - then also move them "back" - and get some more caster while you are at it..... Healeys don't have enough caster to start with - and more caster = less negative static camber is required. But do your maths before you try this - and seek the serrvices of a professional welder or body aligner!! - and often your wishbone locating mounts on the chassis rail will also need to be altered - so that everything lines up when you are finished

Remember - more caster = heavier steering - but better cornering grip.

As always - measure accurately - know what you are trying to achieve, and what you want your car for. Everything is a compromise...
 
I don't feel my offset bushes were worth the bother. You only get to 1 degree negative and they squeak. You also can't adjust them once installed. They just won't move, wrench flats or no. With 185/70 tires or stock, they aren't worth it. Now, the adjustable shock mounting plates are another story, but still, you probably need really wide tires to take advantage of them. When the shocks are moved enough to make a difference, then the arms might foul the tower top, I don't know. Ya gotta do the geometry layout.
 
Talk to the Nocks (British Car Specialist). They fixed mine using off-set bushings. Dave (Nock)just eyeballed it and diagnosed what was needed. I guess (hope) they have the measuring equipment as well. It did change the handling for the better as well as better tire wear. He was right on.
 
I made a couple of sets of offset (upper) bushings. I first tried them in 1986 and found they make a big difference (I was autocrossing the car at that time).

bush14a.JPG


bush18a.JPG


IMG_0206.JPG
 
I'm in agreement with not bending & twisting stuff to get adjustment. Has anyone considered leaving the shock arms and trunion piece in place as a fulcrum and use the Randy Forbes offset or cam type bushing on the bottom to anchor points. These bushings are larger in dia. and theoretically be able to give with an 1/8 offset - 0.0250" of adjustment, PLUS utilizing both front & rear would permit both caster and camber to be adjusted.

Regards, Bob
 
[ QUOTE ]
I'm in agreement with not bending & twisting stuff to get adjustment. Has anyone considered leaving the shock arms and trunion piece in place as a fulcrum and use the Randy Forbes offset or cam type bushing on the bottom to anchor points. These bushings are larger in dia. and theoretically be able to give with an 1/8 offset - 0.0250" of adjustment, PLUS utilizing both front & rear would permit both caster and camber to be adjusted.
Regards, Bob

[/ QUOTE ]
Hi Bob,
I'm not so sure that these solid type bushings would be very good on the lower arms. The suspension is apparently so constructed that the lower arms are already in a bind & need the rubber flex to work properly. See the below quote of Jim Hockert. I don't think many big Healey owners are aware of this problem:
D
------------------------
"I believe that changing out the OEM type suspension bushings for a harder
material is not beneficial to the car or driver in the case of big Healeys.

The reason is that the design and manufacture of the front suspension
causes the bushes to bind as the suspension travels up and down. That is
the reason that you hear squeaks, clunks and thumps when poly bushes are
installed. They bind up, then release with a 'pop'. That is also why the
ride is so harsh with poly bushes.

The caster on the front suspension is built into the chassis by having the
horizontal centerline of the rear suspension bracket one-half inch closer
to the top of the chassis than the horizontal centerline of the front
suspension bracket. This provides two degrees of positive castor for the
suspension. Unfortunately, in the manufacturing process, the brackets are
installed at a 90 degree vertical angle to the chassis instead of 88
degrees. In addition, the shock tower is 90 degrees vertical to the
chassis instead of 88 degrees. Thus, both the upper and lower A-arms do
not travel in plane with the castor angle causing the suspension to bind
slightly as it works. The OEM rubber bushes absorb the binding and
actually snug up somewhat in a tight turn.

The best solution, absent blueprinting the suspension and changing the
angles of the brackets, is to replace the rubber bushes with OEM type
bushes as a regular maintenance item.

Best regards.
Jim Hockert
BJ8 Rallye
Dallas, TX"
---------------------------------
 
Hi Wally,
The Cape trunions are subject to the same problems as any other offset bushing. You can only get about .180" of offset. This offset gives about one degree of camber change. If you were able to get .250" of offset you would have about 1.4 degrees of change. Considering that stock Healeys have about one degree of positive camber, you could get maybe to zero camber. Whether this is enough change to gain anything depends on your requirements. Note above comments by Jim Hockhert that the bushings are already in a bind & solid bushings just make things worse. You can get to zero camber by just lowering the front ride height.
D
 
Dave, the bushings ,Polyurethane, are not solid like the top fulcrum units ahown here. the degree of hardnes desired is selectable and starts at shore 70 which is just above rubber and goes to about 90.--FWIW---Keoke
 
No Dave, just considering replacing all front bushings in the big healey with Poly type will not produce the problems with harsh riding or binding if you select the proper hardness.Thats what Hockert is complaining about.---Keoke
 
Hi Keoke,

Sorry, I thought Hockert was complaining about the bushings being in a bind by design & that harder bushings just made it worse.

In this case, the "proper hardness" would be as stock. Any increase in hardness will create more bind.
I don't see much of an advantage to a soft poly bushing over the original rubber type. In any event, changing the camber with offset hard bushings would appear to be a losing proposition unless it's used strictly for racing. I doubt if offset soft bushings would last very long.

You do know that the original bushings & most other flexible suspension bushings are designed to twist, not pivot as the suspension moves. In the case of the Healey upper outboard pivots, & lower inner pivots, with properly made & fitted bushings, the inner tubes are bonded to the rubber & clamped between the upper arms or lower mounts. The outer rubber is a press fit in the trunnion or inner arm. The rubber only flexes, no pivot. This is why the shop manuals say to set the suspension at ride height before final tightening of the through bolts. Doing it otherwise will over rotate (twist) the rubber & break the inner tube to rubber bond. Then you are back to an unlubricated pivoting joint which squeaks & wears.

It seems to me that harder bushings would not twist (flex) enough for full suspension travel & the inner bushing surface would have to rotate on the through bolt which is not lubricated. This problem in addition to the built in bind of the stock geometry as Hockert mentions. It may not be a problem on a competition car with limited suspension travel & which is regularly rebuilt. I don't think it is so good on a street car.

The real answer for precision suspension & handling is to use actual bearings for the suspension pivot points. But then on the Healeys, the suspension pivot points would have to be realigned (moved) to prevent binding. Or use Heim type (spherical) joints.
D
 
Thats an opinion come out of the woods. Points are better than electronic ignitions too that why all modern cars do not use points---Keoke /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif PS if you havent tried them don't knock em.
 
Back in 1985, I put MGB Delrin bushings in the lower inboard pivots (arms had to be bored "square" vs tapered) and at the same time made an offset upper/outer bush from UHMW. I did this for autocross purposes, but the car remained in daily street use (it was my only car at the time). A very dramatic improvement in handling (the front bit so much better that it was hard to believe it was the same car; I took a big step up in class CSP placings).

A couple years later, when the car was taken off the road for rebuilding, there was no evidence of abnormal wear on any of the bushings used in the front end. Now, all these years later, I'm using practically the same setup (Suspension Dynamics Poly MGB lower/inner & a truly better version of my offset upper/outer bush).

I checked suspension movement prior to having the spring fitted (spring pan bolted up securely) and felt no binding in the process. Considering the intended use the car will get, I'm not concerned about excessive bushing or component wear.
 
Yep Randy, the poly bushings can certainly transform the handling of a car. I just rebuilt my Daimler front end with all Poly bushings you would think I put a modern front end under it no more slop and positive steering.Even the steering post bushes which are felt like the Healey were replaced with poly units wow what adifference.--FWIW---Keoke
 
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