California fires

[Steve_S]

 

[jsneddon]

Just heard that the cub scout camp that I've taken the boy to the last 2 years and that has been there since the 50's is burnt to the ground. Camp Helendade in Running Springs.

dang... what a mess. If it burnt down that means the 100 or so houses on the same mountainside as the camp are probably gone too.

Not to devolve into a political rant and get this thread locked but... Looks like Ahhhnold is working very hard to at least appear to be on top of things. I'll give him a hesitant thumbs up for now. Time will tell.

And how 'bout that DC-10 ???? That thing is a MONSTER....

 

[Steve_S]

Holy cow that's a big fire plane!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:]Looks like Ahhhnold is working very hard to at least appear to be on top of things. I'll give him a hesitant thumbs up for now. [/QUOTE]
I give him no extra credit for doing what we pay him to do. I liked his ideas at first, but now i wish he'd go back to the movies. I absolutely hate politics but he keeps doing things that affect me in a negative way.

 

[John Loftus]

Irvine, where Cars & Coffee takes place, is a massive city so there is no danger whatsoever of fire taking it out.

Yes, Irvine is a concrete jungle but it appears the Irvine/Santiago fire came within only about 5 miles from the Cars & Coffee location. Edit: only about 2.5 miles as the crow flys!

Laguna Beach with all the canyons surrounding the city is in fire danger whenever the fires break out. The city has been very proactive since the last big fire by installing more water reservoirs, more fire equipment and using goat herds to keeping clear a wide swath of brush around the city. Luckily, no flames yet near Laguna during these fires and keeping fingers crossed that it stays that way. I have many friends affected though in Fallbrook, Arrowhead and San Diego. So far it appears everyone still has their houses.

 

[Bret]

Word came down about 11PM last night that thanks to some of our local congressmen doing some midnight brinkmanship between our local officals, the Governornator, CDF officials and the military – Marine & Navy birds should be joining in the air assault on the fires.

For those of you that might remember the Cedar fire 4 years ago, this was a major point of contention during the months of finger pointing because dozens of military birds sat un-used ready to go – if given the word. At the time CDF claimed that they had to use their own resources first, contractors second and then & only then – would the military be involved. Some in the CDF even tried to say that the military pilots weren’t equipped or trained to handle fighting fires. But as has been wisely pointed out by those who knew better - there are plenty of qualified military pilots and helicopters capable of performing such a mission. Heck in many cases the military’s personnel & aircraft are better suited for harsh demands of fire fighting. I mean many of the conditions fire fighters are facing aren’t any different than what many of our military have had to deal with and fly through in the war zones. Minus people shooting at them of course – I’ve always thought it seemed a natural fit and an untapped resource.

Anyway according to some of the sources I’ve read that the Marines are dispatching all of their available water “buckets” to the San Diego area and we should see Marine & Navy rotor assets joining the battle as soon as today.

 

[Steve_S]

Not to take anything away from the talent of military pilots, but combat flying and fire fighting are two completely different worlds. If someone untrained in fire fighting techniques were hurt or killed while fighting a fire, no matter how honorable their intentions, it would open up a world of ridiculous law suits and investigations.

 

[Bret]

Perhaps I wasn’t clear Steve, But I wasn't referring to "ALL" military pilots but in fact is referring to those that are already trained and perform fire fighting operations. They’re just not “certified” by the CDF to fly their missions. Prior to this latest news where are about 40-50 birds sitting there not being used.

 

[Steve_S]

I see now what you were saying. Indeed that does seem silly. I'm sure it's all a matter of liability and no one wants to be the person responsible if there is an accident involving an "uncertified" pilot. Tell that to the people losing homes!

 

[John Loftus]

Prior to this latest news where are about 40-50 birds sitting there not being used.

It's really a shame when you read that fire fighters are requesting lots of outside resources and they aren't available. It appears lots of houses could have been saved had the proper protocol been in place.

 

[Keoke]

Not to take anything away from the talent of military pilots, but combat flying and fire fighting are two completely different worlds.-------> /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/nonod.gif

Ever fly a Napalm attack!


If someone untrained in fire fighting techniques were hurt or killed while fighting a fire, no matter how honorable their intentions, it would open up a world of ridiculous law suits and investigations.

 

[Bret]

While there was a lot of talk about liability with the use of Military assets – there was a number of assertions made about how the CDF & State was afraid of possible lawsuits coming from some contractors that might loose the business should the military join the fire fighting operations.

Moreover many have also asserted that some of the members of the CDF’s “collective barging units” might file for relief and/or compensation from the state should “outside” manpower sources be used.

 

[Steve_S]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:] Ever fly a Napalm attack![/QUOTE]
Napalm gets hot behind you. Try having someone drop a bunch of napalm warheads in a small area right in front of your aircraft. That might come close to having a piece of one of these fires in your path!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:]Moreover many have also asserted that some of the members of the CDF’s “collective barging units” might file for relief and/or compensation from the state should “outside” manpower sources be used.[/QUOTE]
Man, I hate politics.

 

[Bret]

Oh Steve, You make it sound like nobodies shooting at them while they're making that napalm run. /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

Seems to me that even with the extra training for fire fighting - that dropping a bucket of water on a fire would be a whole lot lest life threatening than getting shot at while dropping a bomb load on target.

In other words - I suspect it'd be a whole lot easier to train a military pilot to fight fires than visa versa.

 

[Steve_S]

You're completely missing my point. It has nothing to do with how dangerous the job is or whether or not there are bullets involved. It has to do with one job being different from another.

Driving a train across the country isn't the same as driving a big rig truck. Carrying a 60-pound backpack up a mountain isn't the same as climbing a rock face. Similar tasks but completely different.

I haven't said anything about war being easy nor would I ever. I'm just saying that the dynamics of flying a water drop craft through a fire zone are different from flying a fighter or bomber into a war zone.

 

[Keoke]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:] Ever fly a Napalm attack!

Napalm gets hot behind you.-------->

Yep unless you be the second guy makig the run.!

Try having someone drop a bunch of napalm warheads in a small area right in front of your aircraft.------>

That happens all the time.

That might come close to having a piece of one of these fires in your path!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:]Moreover many have also asserted that some of the members of the CDF’s “collective barging units” might file for relief and/or compensation from the state should “outside” manpower sources be used.[/QUOTE]
Man, I hate politics. [/QUOTE]

 

[Bret]

You're completely missing my point. It has nothing to do with how dangerous the job is or whether or not there are bullets involved. It has to do with one job being different from another.

Actually, I think I understood what your point was perfectly.

I never said that the two missions where alike at all. Only pointing out that the military would be the probably the best asset that could be quickly adapted to the mission at hand - in force and quickly.

Even without the supplemental fire fighting training for the crews I’ve been referring to, military pilots are used to flying in under some of the most adverse conditions imaginable (bullets flying or not) in a variety of missions all over the globe. So to me it would seem to be a natural fit to the fire mission.

A lot of people don’t realize this – but our military is used far more often as first responders to disasters around the world than they are using arms to defend American interests & assets.

Back to the current fires – I also read that the Marine Corps is supplying about 550 Marines to help fight the fires on the front lines. Do you see any problems with that?

 

[70herald]

Steve_S, those photographs are fantastic, I assume that they are yours? The scarecrow picture is absolutely breathtaking.

 

[sideache]

I think this thread should get back on point. This is not a freaking political issue. Mistakes will happen in every disaster. How about we turn our attention to help, rather than finger pointing. I know what it is like to have a fire - I have friends that have lost homes in this one. Sorry if I sound a bit put-off, I am. Some b@stard is caught lighting another fire in Arrowhead this morning. What politics stops that? It is Evil, pure and simple. The fire consuming Orange County is arson. That is Evil. Not all of them are arson – none of them are political.

 

[Steve_S]

Steve_S, those photographs are fantastic, I assume that they are yours? The scarecrow picture is absolutely breathtaking.

They aren't mine, just some photos I found. I agree, the scarecrow photo is unbelievably good. It's possibly the best shot I've seen all year. I wish I took it!!! /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Only pointing out that the military would be the probably the best asset that could be quickly adapted to the mission at hand - in force and quickly.

I agree 100%. With all the aircraft and men available so close to the fire, it's ridiculous not to use them.

I also read that the Marine Corps is supplying about 550 Marines to help fight the fires on the front lines. Do you see any problems with that?

What on earth would be wrong with more man power? Even if it was Joe Blow from down the street, every man involved is going to be an asset.

On a related note, I wish they wouldn't turn down volunteer help. They don't have to give them axes and hoses, but even cutting fire breaks or assisting with other non-dangerous jobs would free up the men who could be out fighting the fire directly. One day perhaps California will get over it's legal timidness and get it's act together.

 

[Steve_S]

Some b@stard is caught lighting another fire in Arrowhead this morning.

Really? Did they actually catch him? That's great! Of course it would be better if he had run into the fire while trying to get away.