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Bugeye vs. TR4 vr. Lotus 7

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SteveT

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I am looking for some opinions, guesses, or just outright beliefs. I am looking at three cars for purchase, and all three are quite different. The question is, which of the three do you think will appreciate in value faster, and where do you see the ending price be in five years?

The cars are:
1960 Bugeye asking price $12,900
1963 TR4 asking $17,500
1971 Lotus 7 asking $17,900

All cars seem to be in great condition with the 7 claimed original with 10,000 miles. The other two are restored/refurbished. Do these asking prices seem reasonable?

I am looking to really enjoy any of the marques, as I have owned a few LBCs; however, I sold a 1968 AH Sprite and if waited would have realized quite a bit more.

Any opinions?

Thanks -- Steve T /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Don't know about future values......I never buy one w/ selling in mind.

The most fun to drive would be the 7.

The best looking would be the TR4 unless you put a Speedwell bonnet on the Bugeye....Then it is the AH for sure.

OK.....Go for the Bugeye on account of asking price.
 
Not a bad price for a restored Bugeye if it was a good job.

By crunching a number or two I suspect there are less than 4000 Bugeyes left in all stages, restored, daily drivers, rollers, racers, and rusting away quitely somewhere. I should think because they are the start of the Spridgets that they will increase, very slowly, possibley not in my life time and prob never enough to make it worth while except for the just plane fun of owning and driveing.

If you don't have one you just can not beleive the looks, smiles, waves you get every time you go out.

Not to mention the sound, SUs really make em sing, they are happy engines, very simple and uncluttered and sound like it.
 
Thanks for all of your input. The Sprite is by far the best value of the bunch, but I think any of them will go up nicely over the next couple of years. Don't know which way to go; all of them look good; I must admit I am leaning towards the 7; am I nuts or what?.
 
If you're into driving hard,go for the Lotus.
Not a lot in the way of creature comforts,but SOO COOL!

- Doug
 
The Bugeye appears to be a very good deal. It's on the low side and the cars are appreciating. The TR4 seems fairly priced but not a huge bargain. I think the Lotus may be over priced (I just responded in the Lotus forum) especially since it's a Series 4 and not a "regular" 7.

"Sports Car Market" magazine follows prices and trends and their take is that the only car here appreciating faster than the market is the Bugeye.

But - I presume you're interested in more than their investment value, which makes it more subjective decision.
 
Hi Steve,

Tough choice. Any of those three would be fun, and all three will continue to appreciate.

I've never been able to look at British cars strictly as an investment. Most of the classic sports cars are appreciating, but restoration and maintenance costs can easily exceed their increased value. I'm not saying it's wrong to worry about market value, it's just not the most present thing for me.

I will never be able to get the money back out of my TR250 if I sold it today, next year, or five years from now. I had so much fun restoring the car that I really don't care! Every time I drive my TR, I guess it loses value. I don't care about that, either. I think of my costs as being the price I pay for being connected to one of the greatest hobbies/interests/obsessions of my life. It's a good deal.

Any of the three cars you mention would be fun and valuable. What are your needs/expectations as far as driving? The Triumph will probably be the most practical (did I really say that?) because it has the most power, roominess, and "modern" features compared to the others, but I'm also a TR owner so I'm biased. For the quoted price, the car should be just about perfect, with no excuses and no particular problems.

At the risk of sounding cynical, I guess the key is to find a car that has been restored by an obsessive enthusiast, and buy it when they have to sell it at a loss for some compelling reason. That's just the way things go.

Good luck with your decision.

Best regards,
 
I owned a TR4 (admittedly a rustbucket) and sold it to buy my Bugeye. Both are classics, but the Bugeye does stand out a bit more. I'd expect you wouldn't lose value on a well purchased car (not counting restoration/maintenance costs, just initial price).

The TR4 is *substantially* quicker/faster/more powerful than the Bugeye, especially if the Bugeye still has the original 948 engine. TR4 also has stock front discs and optional overdrive. These things can be remedied with a Bugeye (I've got a larger 1275 motor and discs set aside for my Bugeye, and 5-speed conversions are reasonably priced) but it requires a bit more effort--all changes can be reversed as though, keeping in mind future value.

My vote is to pick the one you like the most. I initially chose the TR4 based on specification qualities (more power, OD, etc) and sold it within 6 months. I'll probably never sell the Bugeye. None of these cars are particularly valuable, so really aren't great investments. Just a hoot to drive!
 
[ QUOTE ]
The question is, which of the three do you think will appreciate in value faster, and where do you see the ending price be in five years?

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting question....never thought of it that way!

How big is your garage? & checkbook?

Hard choice between 3 fun cars.....each one is special in its own way; but, I'd have to go with the TR4 just because of size issues.
 
As someone who spends much of each day looking at values of cars -- especially classic British ones, I have the following advice:

--Ignore Keith Martin, Barrett-Jackson and other "experts" when it comes to values in relation to cars that aren't at auction. Keith Martin charts auctions, but not private sales, so his values tend to be very high in relation to what you can actually buy good classics for. B-J pushes the values of cars that they own and plan to auction. Indeed, the whole "value" industry is extremely self-serving.

That being said, none of the cars on the list are in any danger of increasing in value faster than the overall market for British cars. Why do I say that? The Bugeyes just appreciated from a market value of around $7500 for a very nice one to about $10-12K for a very nice one. This puts it around the same price as other cars which have always been considered "better" British roadsters.

Very nice TR4s can still be purchased for under $10K. Remember these are PURCHASE prices, not ASKING prices. TR4s, for some stupid reason, have not caught on in the market. They missed their opportunity. TR3s shot up in value, then TR-250s, now TR6s. TR4s have appreciated, but more in line with the rest of the market. It would be uncharacteristic of the market to have the 4s rocket up until something makes them seem extremely attractive (such as TR6s selling at $20K.)

Lotus cars have long been stagnated. Basically, because the market for Lotus is so limited, and the cars have such a horrible reputation for quality, the $20K is the ballpark for 7s and Elans. The one exception has been the Elite, which jumped in value about eight years ago, but has since cooled off.

From the perspective of answering the question: "what car can I buy and in five years sell the car for more/break even" the answer is "any of them." The key is to simply buy any car you want and push hard for a price that gives you a little wiggle room. You should be able to buy a good TR4, good Bugeye or good Lotus for what essentially amounts to "under value" if you look hard, do your research and understand how to get a good deal. All of these cars (and almost every car ever made) have a plus-minus on value large enough to find one that is a good deal. Typical stuff -- buy a good car from a motivated seller!!! This means be patient.

Most importantly, buy a car you like. A TR4 is a wonderful all-arounder. The Bugeye is high on style, but lacks in performance and space. The 7 is wild, uncomfortable, dangerous as crossing Interstate 5 on foot while blindfolded. All are fun as heck in their own ways.

For me, I only fit in the TR4 -- at 6'4", I'm too tall for the Sprite and 7. But for you, you'll have to drive them and see which fits.

But the only one I'd even consider making an offer on would be the 7, because the others are too high priced IMHO.
 
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/iagree.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/iagree.gif

Sage words, Sammy.

I sold my TR3 a year ago on ebay. I set a reserve, and hoped to gain more. It did meet the reserve, and pass it, but based on what I've seen sold before and since, I can honestly say the buyer got a great deal. But, I did have a realistic reserve, and I have no regrets.

Now, I'm finishing the TR8, and it is giving me much more return on my "investment".

I've said it before, this is a hobby for me, not an investment club. The market is just too finicky for me to trust investment money in someone's passion, even (or maybe especially!) my own. I'd much rather restore, drive, and enjoy the car as a hobby, than worry whether I'm going to recover the money spent on it.

Mickey
 
Thanks Mickey...

Mickey actually bought a car that is poised to make one of the largest gains -- the TR8. As one of the handful of V8-powered LBCs, it is destined to at very, very least -- triple in value. When they are selling for $20K, instead of the $4K you can buy 'em at now, don't say I didn't warn you /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

In general, if a car is going to be a great investment -- you buy it at around 20-25 years old -- bottom of its value. IF it is going to rocket in value, it will do so around 30 years from the mid-to-late point of production. (First gen camaros rocketed six or seven years before C3 Corvettes, because Camaros went '67-'69, but Corvettes were '68-'82.) If a car doesn't start to increase tremendously in value by 35 yrs, it probably will never, barring something that turns it into icon status, like a movie, or some cult figure being associated with it.

The LBCs that are good investments: TR8s, TR7 Spiders (fuel injection,) Jaguar V12 convertibles (provided you drive them regularly, but not too much or too infrequently,) and most likely -- Lotus Esprit Turbos. At the same time, Trans Am (Smokey and the Bandit,) Ferrari 308, Delorean, Mustang GT Convertibles (5.0) and IROC Camaros are all sure to appreciate greatly from their current positions.

Speculation when you're not a car guy is annoying to car guys...when you combine your love for cars with knowledge and timing, speculation can be a great way to drive fun classics for --- well...free!
 
Probably not the correct venue to suggest an American car but if I had 17K to spend on a fun car I'd to buy a car SURE to appreciate, a '69-72 Corvette big block convertible. Guaranteed to double in value in ten years. You heard it here, first. Bob
 
As for height, I'm 6'-3" and have two Bugeyes. At $12,900 the car should be pretty well restored with upgrades (1275cc engine, ribbed case transmission, front disk brakes)and a relatively fresh interior. Bugeyes aren't fast but they are quick and a hoot to drive.
 
$10k should buy a really nice specimen, one that you might think twice of where your driving it... $13k would be almost in the garage queen catagory, $15-20k would be rubbed by a diaper - to quote Ferris Bueler's friend.
 
WOW! I never thought this question would bring so much discussion and fun. First and foremost, I am not looking to invest in a LBC in order to make big money in the near or later future, and I know any one of these would be great fun and that is what I really want. I have had three LBCs; Series IV Alpine, great, rust free condition bought in 1982 for $1800 and sold for $2000 three years later. 1968 AH Sprite in 1994 for $4200 and sold in 2004 for $4200, with very little in it. Thought I did pretty good, but then they went up in the last year. Last was a 1970 MGB GT, lost a lot of $$, due to rebuilding the entire car.

Each of the cars I am looking at have great attributes, and for some odd reason I am leaning towards the Seven, but the Sprite has always had a place in my heart.

Thanks for the discussion, it has been very enjoyable and very educational.

Steve T
 
[ QUOTE ]
...But the only one I'd even consider making an offer on would be the 7, because the others are too high priced IMHO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Big difference of opinion here. I felt the 7 was priced way too high - remember it's a series 4, it's not the 7 that leaps to mind when you think of these cars. Even Keith Martin pegs them at about $14500 and, as Sammy wrote, he deals mainly with high roller auction deals. His (KM's) estimates are usually high. I'd be hard pressed to go anywhere near even that for this car, but that's based more on my own likes & dislikes than my perceived monetary value. That's what makes horse races, I guess.

I've often thought that, with the large number of BCF members - even lurkers - we could actually affect the US BCF market. If everyone started talking up Alpines, for example, values might go up simply because so any guys active in the hobby follow the various threads & would be more favorably disposed towards them. Probably illegal.

(Oops - looks like I just got this one in after the bell. I'll leave it here anyway. If the Lotus wins your heart, by all means buy it. You need to do what's best you you, not the marketplace.)
 
John C.,

What is a good price on the S4 Seven? It has the twin cam and supposed 10K original miles with some clear coat cracking on the right rear fender? I know it is not as good looking as the previous series and is all fiberglass rather than aluminum. I am not sure the seller would come down much.

The real reason for the original question was, I think most common '60s and early '70s LBCs are over priced, because B/J and Kruse and other auctions have destroyed the market for enthusiasts. People that really enjoy the camaraderie of weekend car shows, local clubs and events rather than looking for investment grade cars are getting pinched by the “classic car” craze. Pretty soon Yugos and Chevettes are going to bring premium pricing.

Oh well, as they say, buy the best car you can.

Steve T.
 
I might have access to a 1986 yugo GTV turbo that you can get your hands on for around $20,000. hehehehehehe - lol , seroiusly, I'm just kidding. and I know where one is, but it's more likely $50 just to get it outta the yard. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/jester.gif
 
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