BPNW

[DNK]

Everyone get the e mail from them on their new parts?

 

[TR3driver]

I got mine.

But I think I'll stick with the
"... antiquated 4-vane original pump that moves more water with less horsepower."

:laugh:

https://www.bpnorthwest.com/.sc/ms/bdd/ee/10125/Water%20Pump%205-Vane%20TR3-TR4A

 

[Geo Hahn]

4, 5, 6 vanes...

I'm holding out for 'Googol-Vanes' -- maximum number of vanes before infinity.

 

[Deleted member 8987]

I'll tell ya a story about water pumps and movement of water.
NOT LBC related....

Flathead Fords.
Two separate cooling systems, except for the radiator.

No internal coolant connection, two water pumps, two thermostats, two temp senders (sort of), 4 radiator hoses.

At speed, those two pumps spinning can move so much water that it cannot get down the tubes fast enough (and even if it does, it is moving so fast it does not have a chance to transfer heat to the fins properly) that you will (WILL) lift the factory 4 pound cap and pump all your coolant out the overflow.
IF you remove the thermostats, it's worse, as the system depends on the restriction to slow the coolant down.

The *morons* in the Early Ford clubs who have maybe 3,000 miles in 10 years on their restored cars, put in extra vaned-pumps, remove thermostats, run distilled water and no anti-freeze, and get the clueless to follow along.

I have a few flatmotors, one a 3/4 race Merc.

I used part of the old racer technology when I rebuilt my pumps, grinding off every other vane, and putting a bronze 5/8" ID washer in the upper hoses.
I did NOT drill a bunch of holes in the impeller as some racers did, and it works just fine.

There is a point (experientially) that water moves so fast through the core the coolant doesn't cool properly.

You can tell by stopping after a high-speed run, leave the motor idling, feel the top hose then feel the bottom hose.
If the bottom hose (cooled water being sucked back into the engine) is almost as hot as the upper hose (engine heater water going to the radiator to be cooled), you might consider slowing it down a bit.

A bronze washer pushed into the hose so when you push the hose down onto the thermostat housing is rests on top of the housing is a cheap, quick, reversible test.

Just one of those BTDT things......

Now back to the regularly scheduled LBC discussions...

 

[CinneaghTR]

I'm excited about the new brake master cylinder for the '68-'72 GT6!! That was on my parts list.

The 4A has a 4-vane waterpump...

 

[TR3driver]

At speed, those two pumps spinning can move so much water that it cannot get down the tubes fast enough (and even if it does, it is moving so fast it does not have a chance to transfer heat to the fins properly) that you will (WILL) lift the factory 4 pound cap and pump all your coolant out the overflow.

I've never bought into the "moving too fast to cool" theory; but you are very close to what I feel is the real explanation : the radiator itself presents a restriction to flow, so at some flow rate the pressure drop across the radiator exceeds the cap pressure, and water starts to dump out the overflow BEFORE the engine overheats.

This is why most cars are configured with the pressure cap on the suction side of the radiator.

A related problem with too much flow is that the pump inlet is now below atmospheric pressure, which can suck the lower hose closed. Not too common on Triumphs with those short hoses, but on my Olds 88, the correct lower hose actually had a spring inside to keep it from collapsing.

 

[3798j]

A related problem with too much flow is that the pump inlet is now below atmospheric pressure, which can suck the lower hose closed. Not too common on Triumphs with those short hoses, but on my Olds 88, the correct lower hose actually had a spring inside to keep it from collapsing.

When I purchased new radiator hoses for my '64 Corvette. The new lower hose didn't have the coil spring inside. I inserted the one from the old hose because of the long time understanding that without it the hose would collapse. Recently, I saw this explanation as to why GM originally installed those springs: https://automotivemileposts.com/autobrevity/moldedhosecoil.html
I still don't think I'd use a lower hose with out the spring installed.

 

[TR3driver]

So, according to that site, the pressure cannot go negative but an old hose might collapse. Yeah, right.

Well, there might have been something else wrong; but the hose without the spring would visibly collapse when the engine was revved hard, and adding the spring solved the overheating problem. It never overheated again (until years later when the radiator failed); and that included towing some largish trailers at speeds over today's legal limits.

 

[Deleted member 8987]

That's why I said "experientially".

Did it all.
Got over 500K on the 50 Tudor, about 500K on the Willys with the Merc.
I've tried 5-row cores, 14 pound caps (bypassed heater and prepared to replace water pumps), but taking off every other vane on the impeller plus keeping a restrictor in the upper was the ticket.

You know, you read about these things, talk to old flattie racers, and just squirrel it away...and when you have a problem, try one of those "fixes".

I also run 160's in summer, but some of these same *morons* claim you need to be running a 195 as you will never overheat.
With a 160, you can watch the temperature, modify your load to hold it.
With a 195, you think you're doing fine until the needle moves, and by then it's too late, as 212 + 4 or 7 PSI is knockin' at the door.


With a 160, holding 100MPH on the clock climbing the Grapevine out of Bakersfield, in July or August, went right past the water stop and crested at Gorman (or Ft Tejon) with the temperature at about 190 in the top tank (had one of them thermometers from my tool box and checked).

I tried climbing out of Lankershim and as I crossed Sepulveda on the way up just to Castaic many moons before (and before trying these things), it pegged and blew all the water out.

At speed, those two pumps spinning can move so much water that it cannot get down the tubes fast enough (and even if it does, it is moving so fast it does not have a chance to transfer heat to the fins properly) that you will (WILL) lift the factory 4 pound cap and pump all your coolant out the overflow.

I've never bought into the "moving too fast to cool" theory; but you are very close to what I feel is the real explanation : the radiator itself presents a restriction to flow, so at some flow rate the pressure drop across the radiator exceeds the cap pressure, and water starts to dump out the overflow BEFORE the engine overheats.

This is why most cars are configured with the pressure cap on the suction side of the radiator.

A related problem with too much flow is that the pump inlet is now below atmospheric pressure, which can suck the lower hose closed. Not too common on Triumphs with those short hoses, but on my Olds 88, the correct lower hose actually had a spring inside to keep it from collapsing.

 

[Andrew Mace]

related....Flathead Fords. Two separate cooling systems, except for the radiator.

No internal coolant connection, two water pumps, two thermostats, two temp senders (sort of), 4 radiator hoses....

I had no idea those old Flathead V-8s were so advanced...considering that some of the older four-cylinder Ford flatheads had no water pumps at all (thermo-siphon cooling systems), a philosophy that extended even to the early 1950s on some English Fords! :laugh:

 

[Deleted member 8987]

Yup.
Early Model "T"s were thermo-siphon.
NO Model "A"s were.

You look at a flatmotor V-8, it sure looks like they took two Model "A" bocks, sliced the mains and sandwiched them together.

We ALWAYS added a full second temp gauge somewhere, either a toggle switch to feed original, under dash one, under dash two, or the second one in the back of the glovebox.

Neat thing about flatmotors is no pushrods, hydraulic lifters, rocker arms, overhead oiling, valve covers and gaskets, timing chains, or electronic engine controls.

 

[TR6oldtimer]

Neat thing about flatmotors is no pushrods, hydraulic lifters, rocker arms, overhead oiling, valve covers and gaskets, timing chains, or electronic engine controls.

Setting the valve lash was a pain, unless you purchased the after market adjustable cam followers. I remember the first time I did this. Intake manifold off check clearance. It adjustment was needed, off came the heads. Then came the task of getting the keepers out of the spring retainer. Often to my dismay, clink, clink, plunk, down into the sump one would go. OK, too much gap, lap the valve, to little gap, grind the stem. Then put it all back together. Oh, yes a couple of more keepers into the sump.

Those were the days, and fond memories of my '53 Merc.

I eventually bought the adjustable followers.

 

[Deleted member 8987]

Whenever I rebuilt (or rebuild) one, it gets adjustables.
On the fast ones, ISKY 77B cam and hollow Johnson adjustables (been out of production for 30-40 years, but I have some.....).

On the fixed lash, generally over 100-150K and no adjustment necessary.

 

[foxtrapper]

Not disagreeing that you saw the results you saw. Disagree with the conclusion you drew. For while it's true water flying fast through a radiator will transfer less heat per molecule, it's also true that more molecules are flying through, and therefore more heat can actually be transferred. This aproach is used quite commonly on cooling systems by geeky engineers world wide.

Equally true is the ability to pick up heat from the engine. Flying fast each molecule has less time to pick up the heat, but again, more molecules are flying through.

What is often times happening is cavitation, which kills flow and even fluid contact. Many engine passages are poorly shaped, and when flow picks up speed, the water leaves the surfaces, especially those on the inside of various curves. Then the engine gets not. Not the water, but the engine. And when you slow the engine down, and the water slows down, it collapses down into those dry and often times highly heated areas, and promptly boils. Waterpumps also cavitate, killing total flow. Never a problem at low rpms, often times a problem at redline rpms.

 

[Deleted member 8987]

Whatever it is, the old-time flattie racers found it, and the fix of removing vanes on the impeller and restricting outflow, and it worked for me.

Maybe it's an ancilliary to reverse osmosis.

 

[swift6]

When it flows too fast there are other factors that impede cooling. Such as laminar flow and laminar boundaries. The main flow moves too fast to remove heat from the slower moving coolant closest to the hot parts.

 

[TR3driver]

The boundary layer always exists, and raising the flow rate makes a laminar boundary LESS likely. Not that you're ever likely to get a laminar boundary anyway, with all the turns and velocity changes that the coolant goes through.

As TOC says, removing vanes and restricting flow at the outlet do work; but not because fast-moving water doesn't cool as well. Both will help reduce cavitation at the pump vanes (which is a very real problem even on TR motors, but generally only at speeds well beyond stock redline); and raising the pressure inside the engine also improves cooling considerably (especially at the limits where nucleate boiling becomes a possibility).

 

[swift6]

The boundary layer always exists, and raising the flow rate makes a laminar boundary LESS likely. Not that you're ever likely to get a laminar boundary anyway, with all the turns and velocity changes that the coolant goes through.

Had a Civil Engineer explain it a little differently to me. Indicating it could still be a problem, even with those twists and turns if there are pockets where coolant could pool like an eddy and create localized hot spots. Then again, I could be thinking of the wrong terminology too.