• Hey Guest!
    British Car Forum has been supporting enthusiasts for over 25 years by providing a great place to share our love for British cars. You can support our efforts by upgrading your membership for less than the dues of most car clubs. There are some perks with a member upgrade!
    **Upgrade Now**
    (PS: Upgraded members don't see this banner, nor will you see the Google ads that appear on the site.)
Tips
Tips

BioDiesel?

Share this page

Progress Report:

I've decided to phase in the change.

This morning I added 3 liters of new, unused vegetable oil to a 1/2 tank of standard grade diesel. This would give roughly a 10% Oil/90% Diesel mixture; and if it didn't work I'd have the other 1/2 to fill with diesel to dilute it if need be.

I then drove it around the neighborhood- typical suburban driving 20-40 MPH, with numerous stops and starts for stop signs, numerous rolling stops as for yields, a number of traffic lights with idling up to a couple of minutes. No hill starts though. And a couple of blasts down nearby country lanes at 60 MPH for 10-15 minutes. About 15 miles total of varied driving.

There was no discernable change in the car's performance.

It ran normally and I didn't notice any deterioration in acceleration from stops or at any hgiher speed up to 60 MPH.

It started immediately when hot and cold, with temperatures here in the high 50s.

So a 10% mix seems completely do-able.

Tomorrow I'll try another cold start after sitting overnight and will up the concentration to 20% by adding another 3 liters of Oil.

I'll then try that for the following week as an extended test, with more city driving and an hour or so on the motorway.


I've seen reports that this particular car will run fine on even relatively high concentrations of oil; though then I'd need to:

Use a heated fuel filter at higher concentrations- this would make the injector's and injector pump's jobs easier.

I'll need to check the fuel hoses for compatibility- the oil can attack natural rubber and synthetic hose is apparently immune.

I might need to find a way of heating the fuel lines too.

The companies that do conversions do all that and typically like to install the SVO as a parallel system with a seperate tank that's heated too. This allows the use of normal diesel until the oil heats up.

I suspect that may be necessary for 100% SVO system but may be overkill for lower concentrations or areas with hotter climates.

The exhaust also now has a new smell: its not bad, maybe even pleasant, though I cannot confess to sniffing the exhaust much before. But people that use waste oil sometimes complain their cars smell like a chip shop... or worse.

Economics: Buying oil in 3 liter plastic bottles is almost certainly not the cheapest route, but its OK for this experiment. The cost is about 20p/liter less, so a 20% mix would save me a couple of pounds a tankful. I believe I can get the oil for 50p/liter in bulk, saving 80p over the cost of diesel. That'd really make the exercise worthwhile, as would higher concentrations (30%, even 50% which some people say is workable in the relatively mild British winters....)

The car is a 1992 Peugeot 405 GLDT: A 1.9 turbo-diesel with a 5 speed manual transmission. It already has roughly 130K miles on it and is fully depreciated.... Its a good daily driver practical car, we've had it since it was new and its never had any past difficulties.

The car is old but in good mechanical condition.

I'll report again after Sunday's experiment, but I'm optomistic about it and the following week....
 
angelfj said:
If I own a car and my wife owns a car do we own a fleet? Just kiddding!

<span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">IN OTHER WORDS WE'RE SCREWED!!!</span></span>
Click to expand...

I know you were kidding Frank, but if you operated a home business and the business owned the vehicles (which I have seen people do for tax reasons), then yes, it would be a fleet. Fleet applies to commercially registered vehicles, not private.

The case in California that I recently heard about was a "fleet" of five vehicles for a local delivery service that used veggie oil and the owner was being prosecuted for tax evasion. In the same story it mentioned how Governor Schwarzenegger was also in violation of the same statute because he used straight vegetable oil that he would buy at Costco in his Diesel Hummer. Even though his was a private vehicle, not part of a commercial fleet. The Guvernators spokespeople said they were calculating the back taxes so they could be paid.
 
I haven't seen it mention here (or just missed it) but be very careful with the amount of veggie oil used in a USED fuel tank. Veggie oil is known for it's cleaning ability. This is why regular biodiesel is sold as B20. No more than 20% oil will not hurt. All that crud that has accumliated over the years WILL find it's way to the filters. BIG PITA. I would suggest a new tank or have the old one cleaned.
grin.gif
 
I've seen that (tank deposits loosened) mentioned too.

The oil can be used but with a recommendation to change the filter soon after going to a high concentration; and perhaps to carry a spare.

I'll do that, its relatively cheap and easy.

It also seems that in the very short term there's little to go wrong provided the injectors and pump are suitable. And on my particular car they seem to be, according to websites for a couple of companies that provide conversion kits.


But, in the long term things can get more problematical.

Unless the oil is properly injected by the system it may not burn quite so well and leave carbon deposits that eventually affect the engine's performance. Its been suggested that running a tank of proper diesel through at a motorway speed for half an hour will clear that away.

I've also seen cautions that the oil may not burn so well and blow-by can contaminate the lubricating oil. A regular check of oil levels that reveals more oil would catch that problem.

The biggest issue seems to be the viscousity of the oil: 12 times thicker than diesel. Heating it up is recommended for very high concentrations, or a 10% mix of gasoline is said to improve its viscousity by 50%.

Some people with cars like mine have run theirs on 100% oil in the summers and a 50/50 mix during the winters; supposedly with no other changes.

But I'm pretty hesitant to even try that.

The conversion kit provides hotter glow plugs, injectors optimized for oil, a heated large capacity filter and heating for the fuel lines; all to allow use of 100% oil and to avoid the noted problems. The best ones come from Germany, it seems....

Maybe if my experimenting proves the car runs acceptably on a higher oil mix I can then justify buying the kit and doing it properly.


Lots of people are very enthusiastic about using "waste" oil since its much cheaper than fresh, but....

It'd require filtering of particulate matter and treatment to remove any water.

In addition, such used oil may have various chemical impurities that filtering will not remove. I understand the acidity of the oil can be a real problem.

At this point waste oil isn't a source I'm considering, unless bulk buying (say 100 liters) of fresh oil at reasonable prices isn't possible. And I'd want to experiment more to make sure a high concentration is workable.




Progress Report 2:
It started this morning (low 50s temperature) without difficulty on the 10% oil mix from yesterday. Added oil to raise it to a 20% oil/diesel mix. Drove very briefly and there was no change in the car's performance.

I plan on running it on this mix through the week and give it a more extensive trial.

I'll get the new filters tomorrow, and at the week's end pull the one now in and see how much crud came loose. If it stops suddenly, I may get to do that sooner....
 
James, you are boldly going...

I'm interested to learn how this works out. Diesela may be going on a diet. :shocked:
 
Sounds to me like a couple of Raycor filters as used on big semi rigs and the marine industry would be in order. They are very efficient filtering systems designed for ease of servicing!
 
So, James, when you drive by do little kids ask their mom for french fries? hehehehe....I think that's great its working - 20% oil/80
& diesel brings the cost of diesel back down to gasoline prices....where do you think you'll get your oil?
 
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:]...where do you think you'll get your oil? [/QUOTE]

The local grocery store sells it in 3 liter jugs for 3.49 pounds.

But a Chinese Restaurant supplier has 20 liter barrels of rapeseed oil (I think that's called Canola in the USA, and its supposedlythe best oil to use) for 19.45, about 35p/liter cheaper than diesel.

This is new oil so I don't have to mess with filtering it, or worrying about whether there's water or chemical contamination.

A catering supply house might be a little cheaper yet;but commercial oil suppliers advertise for deliveries of 1000+ liters.

Its been suggested that fuel prices could rise another 20p within weeks, so a 50p+ savings per liter would justify installing a conversion kit- I'd see a one year pay-back on the installation at that level of cost differential.
 
Progress Report:

I've now done nearly 600 miles on a 20/80 Oil/Diesel mix with absolutely no problems either starting or running the car on all kinds of roads and traffic or dry/wet/warm/cool weather.

I'll most likely try using 100% oil on the weekend and see how that works out... I've seen a number of reports that my car will run OK on that unless the temps drop and stay below freezing. And the Scottish summers aren't quite as bad as that....
 
JamesWilson said:
Progress Report:

I've now done nearly 600 miles on a 20/80 Oil/Diesel mix with absolutely no problems either starting or running the car on all kinds of roads and traffic or dry/wet/warm/cool weather.

I'll most likely try using 100% oil on the weekend and see how that works out... I've seen a number of reports that my car will run OK on that unless the temps drop and stay below freezing. And the Scottish summers aren't quite as bad as that....
Click to expand...
Any cost savings figures yet?
 
Cost savings so far:

for a 20/80 mix for new oil (costing only 35p less than diesel) is only about 5%- hardly worth it, but if I used recycled oil (assuming its free) I'd then save 20%.

for 100% oil: new would save about 25%; used would be 100%.

The 100% looks really, really atractive. And I may try it with new oil at the weekend and r una month or so on it. I estimate I'd save over 100 pounds monthly using recycled oil, but only 30 pounds if I have to buy new oil. But if diesel prices go up higher...

My car has the Bosche fuel pump that seems the critical component so it should be OK. And summer is here (well, what passes for it) so ambient temperature shouldn't be an issue.

Once I'm sure it runs OK on 100% oil I'll look to source recycled oil from a local fish & chip shop, but I don't know how much oil they use a month or how frequently it gets replaced, what sort of canisters are needed to move it, etc. I'm learning all this as I go.

A German company makes a conversion kit for #550 that includes hotter glow plugs, a heated fuel filter and other niceties. That's roughly 7 tankfuls so between now and Christmas I could save more than enough for a nice present then and run through the rest of the winter....
 
James: I find this topic very interesting! Please keep us posted.

Also, considering the various LBC's that have been produced, did any offer a diesel? Don't some of the Austin taxis run diesel?

What LBC's would be best suited for a diesel transplant? I could see it now a TR-7 diesel - daily driver! :smile:

Best regards,

Frank
 
One thing that keeps me away from considering this seriously ... here in Connecticut restaurants are selling their old oil - for $5/gallon.

When you consider the new equipment needed (the pickup tank, the storage tank, the "filtering" tank, and the modifications to the engine), it begins to lose some of its appeal. You don't just drive your car up to McD's waste oil tank and fill 'er up.

I admire James for his detailed investigation and am following this *very* closely. But if the equipment -and even the "chip oil" - has to be bought, the advantage begins to diminish.

Just a thought ...

Tom
 
NutmegCT said:
You don't just drive your car up to McD's waste oil tank and fill 'er up.
Click to expand...

No, indeed not. I reckon I'll have 4 or 5 20 litre cans from using new oil that should be ok for carrying to the local chippy and transporting the stuff. If they're not really suitable I could buy an alternative for around 12 pounds each.

My local garden centre sells plastic water barrels for 25 pounds each, each can hold 136 liters. But they're not airtight and I cannot tell whether the oil stored in them might absorb water as a contaminant from the air. I'd doubt it (oil and water not mixing) but will need to ask about that.

As I understand it the chief issues with using waste oil is to first heat it sufficiently so that any water is boiled off, and particles that need to be filtered out.

Filtering: Some people recommend letting it sit for a few days to allow particles to settle out. then it can be filtered, first through old cloth to remove the larger particles, then progressively through 20 and 2 micron filters. I've no idea how long the filters last but suppose it depends on the supplier and how dirty they let the oil get before discarding it. The filter bodies seem to cost around 50 pounds and the consumable elements around 8-10 pounds each. So a set up with two filters and a barrel for the clean oil oil would cost about 150 pounds, assuming I can get the other containers for free and fabricate a feeder tank from one of then to feed the filters. I'd try to let gravity provide the push... a pump could be used if needed.

If the oil has to be stored in airtight containers I'd then need at least 3 of them, as well as however many would be required to transport the stuff.

I understand that waste oilmay also have other contaminants from cooking- phosphates, salt, etc. that may need to be monitored. I have a friend who's a bio-chemist here at the University so I'll probably be able to get some chemical analysis done cheaply to figure out whether the supply has any nasties in it or if it's useable.

So I'll see how the test goes over the next couple weeks, and report back again...
 
Here's an interesting description of the steps needed, and the caveats, related to converting "chip oil" for use as fuel.

https://www.greasecar.com/article.cfm?aid=19

I'd be interested in any similar sites you've found in the UK.

Thanks.
Tom
 
NutmegCT said:
I admire James for his detailed investigation and am following this *very* closely.
Click to expand...

I am also following this quite closely, and even looked at a diesel powered van yesterday (because I need a van, not specifically diesel) Now all I need is a good source of used oil.
 
Progress Report:

Over the past month I've now done nearly 400 miles on 100% Vegetable Oil with absolutely no problems either starting or running the car on all kinds of roads and traffic or dry/wet/warm/cool weather.

I usually drive a little more than that but the car was "down" for a week when a brake pipe corroded through and broke. :hammer: Totally unrelated to the oil.

The biggest problem was the 20 litre cans the oil comes in- they're a bear to wrestle in position and pour through the funnel into the tank. Makes fueling the car a two person job- or I just pour it into more manageable 5 liter cans. If I buy it in the smaller cans it then becomes a bit more expensive.

Seems to work fine, though with diesel prices now starting to ease a little the eonomics aren't so attrative. I'm saving roughly 20% I estimate.

I'll try it another month or so; and maybe then start seriously looking for a local Fish & Chip Shop for their waste oil. My local one uses lard so they're out....


I now have a vegetarian car.... :angel:


At some point in the next couple of weeks I'll need to pull the fuel filter and check how much debris has been dislodged by the fuel change. I've got two spare filters and the tools (Both of them!- a screwdriver and adjustable wrench) should it suddenly decide to stop running; and I've read the shop manual so I'll kinda- sorta know what to do when it needs doing.
 
Might want to check the chinese eateries. I've read the they use is really good for that kind of setup (safflower oil? or maybe it's just a high quality vegetable oil I think).

For the gravity feed thing, for about every 2 ft high the main container above ground level is, you get about 1 psi of outlet pressure at ground level.
 
Back
Top