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BioDiesel?

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JamesWilson

JamesWilson

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<span style="font-size: 11pt"> With the price of Diesel now at £1.32 /liter~ $9.50+/US Gallon I'm considering using biodiesel.

A quick scan of some websites makes it seem very easy to make and virtually painless and cheap to switch to using (a new bigger fuel filter) so is there a downside? And it seems both my cars will be able to use it without any other conversion issues.

I'm using an average of 75 liters of fuel a month between two cars and don't have that much space for production equipment or storage.

Does anyone else make and use biodiesel or have experience with it?
</span>
 
One of my students uses it in his Cheverolet truck.

He gets the oil free from a local Chinese restaurant.

The oil is poured into a 30 or 55 gallon drum through a screen filter.
Then taken home and placed on a raised bench.
The oil is allowed to drip through a screen into a second drum (through a tap on the bottom of the first drum).
Then he uses it. He uses a hand pump and is careful not to pump all the way from the bottom of the barrel.

He only uses this stuff in the warmer months. Not during months where we are below 0 C (for us this us normally Jan, Feb, March).

One point: Here in the USA, this is illegal, since he is not paying road fuel tax on this fuel (the tax used to maintain the roads). There have been several cases where people were actually fined for using untaxed biofuel. I'm sure I've read something similar happened in the UK.

So, I would say the same thing to you as I did to my student. If you do this, don't broadcast that you're doing this.

Otherwise, you'll have Scotland Yard hammering at your door looking for their <span style="font-style: italic">Baksheesh</span>. :jester:
 
<span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans MS'"> <span style="font-size: 11pt"> Its not illegal here. There's a HM Revenue & Customs Webpage website that explains it, but its pretty dense. It seems I'd get a 20p/liter tax break on the stuff. or about a £1 a UK gallon.

Its not that much of an incentive... given the hassle of making and storing the stuff, but I might be tempted nonetheless... if fuel goes to £2/liter.

I think I should write my local MP.</span></span>
 
I am *really* looking forward to how this discussion goes. I myself am seriously considering getting an older Mercedes diesel (1982 300D?) and adapting it for biodiesel.

My first consideration is where to get the fuel. There are a few stations around that sell "bio-diesel" (petroleum mixed with vegetable derivative fuels made from grains or grasses). But that's more expensive than straight petroleum diesel.

As an aside, I'm also interested in how many folks where I live say they fill up with "ethanol" when what they use is really a mixture of 90% gasoline and 10% ethanol. Biodiesel isn't always just 100% old cooking oil. Two different critters.

Some people around here make their own diesel fuel from vegetable oil (used cooking oil from restaurants). But they're now saying that their suppliers are now charging for the oil - so it's almost as expensive as petroleum diesel. You can save a bit by driving to various restaurants and collect your own - if you have a large trailer and want to deal with the "mess". But it's still not really saving you much money in the long run, especially if you have to buy a trailer and large tank to put it in.

So for me, the question isn't whether to convert or not. I'm ready. But where to get the fuel?

Tom
 
aeronca65t said:
One point: Here in the USA, this is illegal, since he is not paying road fuel tax on this fuel (the tax used to maintain the roads). There have been several cases where people were actually fined for using untaxed biofuel.
Click to expand...

There's a bunch of people around here doing it too. You can contact the local office of revenue (tax office, whatever) to get the forms to pay the tax directly to the local tax people.
 
According to the NBB - National (USA) Biodiesel Board (a USA trade association) - there are only four biodiesel ("B20": 20% bio, 80% petroleum diesel) retailers in the entire state of Connecticut.

An interesting site -

https://www.biodiesel.org/
 
<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">One point: Here in the USA, this is illegal, since he is not paying road fuel tax on this fuel (the tax used to maintain the roads). There have been several cases where people were actually fined for using untaxed biofuel. I'm sure I've read something similar happened in the UK.</span></span>

Are you sure that the use of biodiesel is illegal!!! I have been following the development of alternative fuels for years and have never heard this. What would be the difference in using used cooking oil or any other "fuel" that you produced. OR what about electricity. There is no way to establish that the electricity consummed to charge the battery in an electric vehicle is used for transpotation and not to light your home. How could any government establish a basis for the "road" tax. So, I think this must be incorrect.
 
angelfj said:
<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">One point: Here in the USA, this is illegal, since he is not paying road fuel tax on this fuel (the tax used to maintain the roads). There have been several cases where people were actually fined for using untaxed biofuel. I'm sure I've read something similar happened in the UK.</span></span>

Are you sure that the use of biodiesel is illegal!!! I have been following the development of alternative fuels for years and have never heard this. What would be the difference in using used cooking oil or any other "fuel" that you produced. OR what about electricity. There is no way to establish that the electricity consummed to charge the battery in an electric vehicle is used for transpotation and not to light your home. How could any government establish a basis for the "road" tax. So, I think this must be incorrect.
Click to expand...

He's saying that *not paying the tax* is illegal.

Tom
 
NutmegCT said:
angelfj said:
<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">One point: Here in the USA, this is illegal, since he is not paying road fuel tax on this fuel (the tax used to maintain the roads). There have been several cases where people were actually fined for using untaxed biofuel. I'm sure I've read something similar happened in the UK.</span></span>

Are you sure that the use of biodiesel is illegal!!! I have been following the development of alternative fuels for years and have never heard this. What would be the difference in using used cooking oil or any other "fuel" that you produced. OR what about electricity. There is no way to establish that the electricity consummed to charge the battery in an electric vehicle is used for transpotation and not to light your home. How could any government establish a basis for the "road" tax. So, I think this must be incorrect.
Click to expand...

He's saying that *not paying the tax* is illegal.

Tom
Click to expand...

Precisely, just like not paying the tax on moonshine is what makes moonshine illegal (not getting into the health and safety concerns fom some of the stills). The Department of Revenue is who does the enforcment of it. If you buy it out of a pump run by a business, you're already paying the tax. If you make it in your garage, then you will need to pay the tax yourself. Electric cars will present a whole other issue with the Department of Revenue. When it becomes more prevalent, I'm sure they will come up with a way to do it. The majority of cases that I have heard about being prosecuted, so far, are more about fleets of vehicles using homemade biodiesel/used vegetable oil. Keep in mind that any business having two or more vehicles is considered to have a "fleet".
 
If I own a car and my wife owns a car do we own a fleet? Just kiddding!

<span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">IN OTHER WORDS WE'RE SCREWED!!!</span></span>
 
In the world of bio diesel there are two distinct different systems.
First is mixing Used cooking oil along with other chemicals in a small home refinary to make "bio diesel" fuel to be used in any diesel vehicle without modification. it cost far less per gallon to produce this fuel that to buy straight diesel.
the second is the Veggiecar, or greasecar, which is a modified diesel vehicle fitted with a secondary fuel system that is heated and filtered so it can , after a warmup on real diesel, or bio diesel, be switched to run on pure, unrefined, (although filtered) used fryer grease.
In the long run the second style is cheaper, as you don't need to buy any additional chemicals to stabilize the grease.
We have several Veggie diesels that frequent our shop. Some only smell a little, some reek! It depends on the setup, the owner, and where they get the grease. If you get it at a burger joint, it'll smell like french fries, if they get it at a chineese place it'll smell like eggrolls. but the worst is fishfry grease. P.U.!!!
Most of these cars smell like the dumpster behind McDonalds when you get near 'em. inside and out.(and I'm not talking the exhaust).
Still thier very cool. and I've seen "hybrid" versions, like stated above that just had additional filters to be used with extra seperated grease in the warm months.
There's lots of info on them.
So I have to say, the biggest drawbacks are the smell, and the mess. and the ever increasing threat of the road tax issue becoming more serious as Veggie cars gain popularity.
 
Ben - interesting. In your neck o' the woods, where do they get the used cooking oil? Here in Connecticut it's only available for cash, and there are actually people "stealing" the used oil from behind the restaurants. Even prying off the lock on the tank.

I like the idea of 20% cooking oil in the diesel fuel. But I'm trying to figure out where you get the oil to begin with, unless you actually buy it.

At a tank (13 g) a week, how the heck does someone find 13 g of used cooking oil if trying to run 100% non-petroleum fuel? That's a lotta oil - and a lot of processing.

Tom
 
JamesWilson said:
<span style="font-size: 11pt"> With the price of Diesel now at £1.32 /liter~ $9.50+/US Gallon I'm considering using biodiesel.

A quick scan of some websites makes it seem very easy to make and virtually painless and cheap to switch to using (a new bigger fuel filter) so is there a downside? And it seems both my cars will be able to use it without any other conversion issues.
</span>
Click to expand...
According to the 2007 numbers that I found, %67 of that amount goes to various government taxes. Only %33 goes to fuel & handling prices.

I suspect that in the UK, it is illegal to avoid the taxes on motor fuel, it is in the USA. You may qualify for an exemption as a small producer, but the record keeping & proof of compliance & quality may be daunting.

To compare, in the USA, about %11 of the total goes to state & federal taxes.

In both countries, at the prevailing prices, the refiner/seller nets nearly the same amount.
D
 
NutmegCT said:
Ben - interesting. In your neck o' the woods, where do they get the used cooking oil? Here in Connecticut it's only available for cash, and there are actually people "stealing" the used oil from behind the restaurants. Even prying off the lock on the tank.

I like the idea of 20% cooking oil in the diesel fuel. But I'm trying to figure out where you get the oil to begin with, unless you actually buy it.

At a tank (13 g) a week, how the heck does someone find 13 g of used cooking oil if trying to run 100% non-petroleum fuel? That's a lotta oil - and a lot of processing.

Tom
Click to expand...
Most veggie car owners around here have set up agreements with local resturants to collect the fryer grease. Having to buy the used grease from the resturant has not happened here yet, it's still free. Most resturant owners are happy to not have to pay someone to dispose of the crud. I'm sure as more and more cars start to pop up, things will change.
A typical resturant can produce 10-20 gallons, or more, of used grease a week (depending on how often they change the grease in the fryer) So it's not that big of a deal to source it.
One customer of ours has a F350 truck that they use for a business. it has a 50 gallon tank in the front of the bed. and they also have an old MB 300D that has a 10 or 15 gallon tank in the trunk. The truck isen't so bad, but the car stinks to high heavens. I think I'd be sealing off the trunk a little better or something....
 
<span style="font-size: 12pt">I've done a little more investigating.

It seems that since the end of June British drivers can use up to 2500 liters of biofuels annually before they become liable for tax.

It also seems that I can use Straight Vegetable Oil (SVO) in my cars without significant conversion issues.

Various people have reported using mixtures (20% up to 50/50) of SVO with diesel without difficulty; and a few have even been able to run 100% SVO.

The chief difficulty is the lower viscousity of the SVO that often requires heating the tank, fuel lines and maybe a stronger pump/glow plugs/injectors.

It may also be possible to vary the concentration with hgiher %s of SVO during the summer with less or none during the cold months.

Over the week-end I might try a 20% mix and see how it goes (literally).

Watch this space....
</span>
 
James - thanks for the update. I'm quite interested in your statement that your cars can run on SVO without modification.

What cars are you running? (make/model/year) etc.

Most everything I've read on SVO includes a warning that modification is needed.

Thanks.
Tom
 
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