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My XKE only has about 45K miles. About 2K miles ago I had a small oil leak and replaced the cam cover and gaskets and resealed the cam blocks. I recently and stupidly took the car to Jiffy Lube to change the radiator fluid. After competion, as they pulled the car out of the bay, it overheated and sprayed fluid all over the engine and car. At the time they said it was caused by them putting on the wrong radiator cap. They wiped off the car and hose sprayed the engine compartment. When I went to leave the engine sputter. The manager said it was a wet distributer. I made it less than 3 blocks before she shut down. I called for a flatbed. When he arrived hours later, the car started so he followed me as I drove it home (about 1 mile). It failed to start again other than a raspy sputtering filled with white smoke. It's now in the shop and I'm being told the white smoke indicated the engine needs to be rebuilt and they stated that there was radiator fluid actually mixed in with the oil. As I'm not confident of anyone's diagnosis and since I assume there may be a fight with Jiffy Lube, I need to do some homework. Any thoughts and recommendations would very much be appreciated.
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big dilemma with 1974 XKE
- Thread starter bpmofva
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jessebogan
Jedi Knight
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Where are you in Virginia? Is your car manual or automatic? It is quite possible that they did not put enough coolant into the car . How many gallons did they charge you for? The V12s hold around 5 1/2 to 6 gallons if I remember correctly. Give me a call if you wish, I have a ton of experience with V12 jags, and I am in the Metro DC area. 301 770 5274 (Jags)
jessebogan
Jedi Knight
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Oooops , I see I type with dislexia Try 301 770 5247
Bruce Bowker
Obi Wan
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I would get at least a few professional opinions on what the problem is. I don't have an extreme amount of mechanical knowledge with cars but I have an extreme amount of knowledge with crooks in this business.
I am sure Jesse will give a true analysis.
I am sure Jesse will give a true analysis.
How could it overheat? How long did they run the engine, were the electric fans working? If it was very low on coolant it would not blow out! white smoke could be caused by brake fluid or even unburnt gasoline. In any event if you think JL are responsible, GET AN ATTORNEY, do nothing to the car until you do so. I /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif can't imagine anyone taking a V12E to JL!!
You're right about me taking it to a JL. I thought they could at least change fluids. Now I know better. I've got an attorney, but right now I'm still trying to determine what and if the assessment from the Jaguar shop is accurate so I can better understand what occured at JL to take my perfectly running V-12 to a point that it needs to be rebuilt. I'm getting more input from the repair shop today as to what they found. When I get that description, I'll post it here and reach out to Jesse, one of the local memebers for any further input. I'll then take the car to another shop for verification of the diagnosis.
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As an aside; a customer with a Ferrari 308 brought the car around to our shop a week after he'd "on impulse" had a "Quik-Lube in rear" do his oil change. He had: "some jangling noises from someplace," it was "pushing" oil out of the filler cap and the cam area. Pulled the dipstick and it was well overfilled. Turns out he'd TRASHED the gearbox due to the OilChangeMonkey's inability to distinguish "Olio Transmissione" from "Olio Motore". Drained the gearbox and put six more quarts of oil inna engine... The "QuickLube" paid in the end, but it took some doing. If it ain't a Camry or a Chevy, change your own oil or find a specialty shop.
And "yes," the car's owner was clueless about the car and all things mechanical.
And "yes," the car's owner was clueless about the car and all things mechanical.
kennypinkerton
Yoda
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Yet one more reason I will only change my own vehicle fluids (especially on even slightly oddball cars).
Jesse, The mechanic got back to me with an estimate for just under $3k to remove and replace the head gaskets plus whatever the cost for resurfacing at the machine shop. They've stated that the heads are warped and radiator fluid was coming through the spark plugs. I'm still struggling to figure out why and how this occured. Obvioulsy the V-12 runs hot but I've never had a real problem. I even had a switch installed under the dash so that the fan would not have to function off a thermostat. I run it continuously. I'm sensitive to the XKE and therefore careful about checking the fluids. I'm trying to figure out what JL could have done to the car to cause it to overheat as soon as they completed the fluid change. They said it was because they had installed a defective radiator cap. I'm trying to understand how overheating in the shop could cause the heads to warp. Could hosing down the hot engine (to get rid of the coolant which had sprayed everywhere) cause any further damage? This car was perfect when I took it in and now the heads have to be resurfaced. I'm going to tow it to another shop for a second opinion but I still need to do my own homework. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
jessebogan
Jedi Knight
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The only way that I can think of is that they ran the car without enough coolant in it. Perhaps they put in 3 or 4 gallons, thought it was full, and ran the car. Since both the temp sensor and the thermostats would likely be above the "water line" the stats would not open, and the gauge would not register a hot condition. Still, it would have had to be hot for a bit to do all that damage. If all they did was put the wrong cap on, it might have spewed some coolant out, but should not have had a meltdown without some other reason.
Second, and you will not likely want to hear this. I would bet it will take 20 hours or more(maybe a bunch more) to do a decent job of fixing the car. If the heads are well and truly warped, they can't just be machined flat again. The cams wont be running "true" in their bores. The heads can be straightened by heating and more of less unwarping them .This is specialist work. Not only that, the heads can be really difficult to remove. There are head pullers available for V12s. Be sure that they have one. Also, you might as well change all the coolant hoses, and the thermostats, and clean the accumulated corrosion deposits out of the water jackets. All in all, doing heads on a V12 is time consuming and the quality of the job is in the details. Also, while the heads are off they MUST be checked by a competant machinist. V12s are prone to "dropping" valve seats after a major overheating episode, and it is best to be really sure that they are OK. The other thing that comes to mind is the timing chain tensioner. They are some sort of plastic, and they often break when they are released so that the chains can be removed from the cams. To replace that, the engine front cover has to come off. Not a big deal with the heads off, but you should plan for that eventuality also. I would have your attorney prepare JL for the worst. 5 or 6 grand parts and labor is probably not out of line. This ain't no Chevy, and should be repaired properly, otherwise, there will be no end of problem chasing down the road. Like I said, feel free to call me. I am in the shop 7 days, usually until 8:00 or so.
Good Luck,
Jesse
Second, and you will not likely want to hear this. I would bet it will take 20 hours or more(maybe a bunch more) to do a decent job of fixing the car. If the heads are well and truly warped, they can't just be machined flat again. The cams wont be running "true" in their bores. The heads can be straightened by heating and more of less unwarping them .This is specialist work. Not only that, the heads can be really difficult to remove. There are head pullers available for V12s. Be sure that they have one. Also, you might as well change all the coolant hoses, and the thermostats, and clean the accumulated corrosion deposits out of the water jackets. All in all, doing heads on a V12 is time consuming and the quality of the job is in the details. Also, while the heads are off they MUST be checked by a competant machinist. V12s are prone to "dropping" valve seats after a major overheating episode, and it is best to be really sure that they are OK. The other thing that comes to mind is the timing chain tensioner. They are some sort of plastic, and they often break when they are released so that the chains can be removed from the cams. To replace that, the engine front cover has to come off. Not a big deal with the heads off, but you should plan for that eventuality also. I would have your attorney prepare JL for the worst. 5 or 6 grand parts and labor is probably not out of line. This ain't no Chevy, and should be repaired properly, otherwise, there will be no end of problem chasing down the road. Like I said, feel free to call me. I am in the shop 7 days, usually until 8:00 or so.
Good Luck,
Jesse
jessebogan
Jedi Knight
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Oh yeah, I just thought of one last thing. The mechanic should check the liner protrusion above the block surface on each and every liner. If it got hot enough, the liners can sink into the block, and will never seal again. The only cure is to replace the block.
Sounds like they didn't bleed the cooling system. You need to find the highest heater hose on the engine and take that off and start pouring coolant into the radiator. When you get a good stream of coolant out the heater hose, you probably have it bled. They had an air bubble, probably 2 gallons worth in the head. That's why it puked the coolant. The thermostat will block the air in the head, since that's the only way back to the radiator and the atmosphere. Toyota puts a jiggle pin in the thermostat that will let the air thru.
Had you known that, you would let it cool off and then do the bleeding routine. When you drove it home low on coolant,it took out the headgasket. Just taking it out of the shop wouldn't put enough heat into the engine to cause that much damage, you have to drive it. Somebody else mentioned the sending unit is probably up out of the coolant and won't register anything is right. About the only thing you might notice is it pinging, but maybe not.
Don't get down on the Jiffy Lube guy's too much, I worked at a Ferrari dealer 30 years ago and one of the journeyman techs drained the trans on a 308 and put another 8 qts in the engine. Oil everywhere when he started it. The drain plug on the engine was about 32mm across and the trans plug was a normal 13mm or so. He couldn't imagine a 32mm drain plug and pulled the normal sized one. Snap-on truck came by a little later, $29 for a 32mm wrench. That's like $125 today.
First job I had then was pulling the heads on a 74 XKE. Yellow convert. Dropped the valve seat out of the head. Machine shop peened all the seats back in. Car only had about 12k on it.
Jiffy Lube has garage keepers insurance for this kind of thing. Find out who their insurance company is.
Had you known that, you would let it cool off and then do the bleeding routine. When you drove it home low on coolant,it took out the headgasket. Just taking it out of the shop wouldn't put enough heat into the engine to cause that much damage, you have to drive it. Somebody else mentioned the sending unit is probably up out of the coolant and won't register anything is right. About the only thing you might notice is it pinging, but maybe not.
Don't get down on the Jiffy Lube guy's too much, I worked at a Ferrari dealer 30 years ago and one of the journeyman techs drained the trans on a 308 and put another 8 qts in the engine. Oil everywhere when he started it. The drain plug on the engine was about 32mm across and the trans plug was a normal 13mm or so. He couldn't imagine a 32mm drain plug and pulled the normal sized one. Snap-on truck came by a little later, $29 for a 32mm wrench. That's like $125 today.
First job I had then was pulling the heads on a 74 XKE. Yellow convert. Dropped the valve seat out of the head. Machine shop peened all the seats back in. Car only had about 12k on it.
Jiffy Lube has garage keepers insurance for this kind of thing. Find out who their insurance company is.
I don't know if this is a fact or not, but when I had my shop ( a franchise, but not Jiffy Lube), I was told that one measure that JL corporate used to determine how well a shop was doing was the number of engines that they had to buy. Evidently, the more engines meant more business.
Have you drained the engine? Assuming it blew the head gaskets, which is what it sounds like, it probably has coolant inside the cylinder bores, and it may sit awhile while you decide what to do about it. And rusty rings and cylinder bores is a whole new thing you may have to deal with. Drain the gunk in the engine and refill with fresh oil, pouring some down the spark plug holes.
It does sound like they didn't get it filled and burped properly. Frankly, if it got a really good cook on it, try to find another engine without a history of overheating. Not easy, I realize. It might be possible to graft in an XJS-HE engine, if you use the original manifolds.
Jessebogan is right, don't let anybody work on it that even thinks about surfacing the heads. As a general rule, don't surface any OHC head unless you can do them top and bottom and shim the camstands up properly.
It does sound like they didn't get it filled and burped properly. Frankly, if it got a really good cook on it, try to find another engine without a history of overheating. Not easy, I realize. It might be possible to graft in an XJS-HE engine, if you use the original manifolds.
Jessebogan is right, don't let anybody work on it that even thinks about surfacing the heads. As a general rule, don't surface any OHC head unless you can do them top and bottom and shim the camstands up properly.
John S Farrington
Jedi Warrior
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I have read your post on the V12 problem at Jiffy Lube. I cannot imagine anybody using the Jiffy Lube services for anything if the car is a series 3 Etype. Most of the advice has merit; the Jag V12 has complicated cooling passages and must alsays be "burped" when filling the coolant system. The consequences of not doing this properly leads to overheating and the consequences of overheating is usually catastorpic. I have rebuilt nore than one V12 and can assure you that overhaul labor and usual parts requirement can be $10,000 or more (never less).You need to locate a specialized mechanic (and machinist) that knows the Jaguar V12 engine and has experience with rebuild. There are too many pitfalls, nuances and tricks of the trade to go with any kind of fledgling operation. Even if it requires transportation of the car to a location further than your immediate vicinity. Tow fare is a bargain compared to a botched job on a V12. Secondly you need the services of a lawyer to deal with Jiffy Lube. This negotiation is outside the boundaries of the small claims court. Last of all, dont let anybody talk you into a V8 conversion (unless your car is a 2 plus 2). The car will be destroyed. Best regards, Jack Farrington.