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Owners bought the cars expecting 40-50mpg. After the "fix" they will get nowhere near that. Should VW compensate the owners for added fuel costs?
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Behind VDubs Problems
- Thread starter DNK
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I'm definitely curious what the fix is going to be. Some people have speculated that a second catalyst or particle catcher, or whatever they call it, would be installed in the exhaust. That would probably be the least disruptive. The question with a software change is what gets sacrificed: Power or economy. IIRC, the 2.0 TDI is rated at 140 horsepower, and I forget the torque number, but, like all diesels, it's got low end grunt. In all honesty, you could lose about 10% of the horse power and still have a fairly peppy car.
Meanwhile I'm just marking time. I even got an e-mail from the VW dealership telling us that there is nothing that can or will be done at this point. The nosedive in resale probably won't affect me, I was planning on running this car into the ground anyway.
But it does make one wonder: How do today's standards stack up against the ones we had when the first diesel craze started in the late 1970s? Is 40 times the EPA standard still far cleaner than they used to be?
Meanwhile I'm just marking time. I even got an e-mail from the VW dealership telling us that there is nothing that can or will be done at this point. The nosedive in resale probably won't affect me, I was planning on running this car into the ground anyway.
But it does make one wonder: How do today's standards stack up against the ones we had when the first diesel craze started in the late 1970s? Is 40 times the EPA standard still far cleaner than they used to be?
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Thanks. That's exactly what I was asking about. If the engine tests "dirty" without the current software, then how can it pass state inspections? Will simply changing the air/fuel ratio make the engine meet state standards?
Or will the new software just change more code?
TR3driver
Great Pumpkin - R.I.P
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CA doesn't sniff the tailpipe for diesel cars, so it's not a matter of "testing dirty". And even if they did, the software detects when it is being run on a dyno, and goes into the "clean" mode, so the tailpipe would sniff clean anyway.
What they (probably) will do is add a specific check to see if the new modification (whatever that is) has been installed, and refuse to pass the car unless it has.
What they (probably) will do is add a specific check to see if the new modification (whatever that is) has been installed, and refuse to pass the car unless it has.
TR3driver
Great Pumpkin - R.I.P
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The problem with that approach is that the catalyst requires a urea additive, meaning they have to add a tank to hold the urea solution and owners have to refill the tank on occasion. And of course the software would still have to be changed, to accomodate the care & feeding of the catalyst (including what to do if the tank is dry).
TR3driver
Great Pumpkin - R.I.P
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The pollutant in question is oxides of nitrogen (mostly NO and NO2, known collectively as NOx), which is formed basically any time you heat a nitrogen/oxygen mixture (ie air) hot enough. Lightning is another common source. NOx is considered to be a major component of smog, and to a lesser extent, acid rain.
It's not yet clear to me that fixing the problem with software will, in fact, increase fuel consumption. But it almost certainly will mean a big hit in available power. To reduce NOx, they will have to both reduce boost pressure and limit the amount of fuel injected. We could easily be talking less than half the current power being available.
TR3driver
Great Pumpkin - R.I.P
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That's easy : There were no smog standards for diesel engines back then.
I don't know how much NOx those old naturally aspirated diesels put out, but I think it very likely that the TDI is quite a bit worse. Remember, they took what would normally be a tiny diesel engine, and got a bunch of power from it by adding a blower (or is that two blowers?) All that boost is what drives up cylinder temperatures and hence NOx emissions.
TR3driver
Great Pumpkin - R.I.P
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Here's an interesting link, where they claim that "non-cheat" mode only reduces torque by about 12% and peak power hardly at all.
https://www.tflcar.com/2015/10/how-much-power-does-the-vw-tdi-lose-in-cheater-mode-video-report/
Not sure I believe that, it would have been more convincing if they had actually measured NOx levels to be certain the cheat mode was fully engaged (and see how bad they actually were), but it is interesting.
Even without that, it seems clear to me that they _can_ fix the problem with just software. After all, the software makes the exhaust clean enough when it detects it is running on a dyno. The question is whether the resulting loss in performance will be acceptable or not. The catalyst solution would presumably allow them to fix the issue with little or no impact on performance. And if the software fix reduced performance to naturally aspirated levels, I think most people would feel the car was totally undriveable. I once drove a VW Rabbit with a 1.5L diesel, and it was positively a menace on the road! Worse performance than the original VW bug! And the Rabbit was a relatively light car.
https://www.tflcar.com/2015/10/how-much-power-does-the-vw-tdi-lose-in-cheater-mode-video-report/
Not sure I believe that, it would have been more convincing if they had actually measured NOx levels to be certain the cheat mode was fully engaged (and see how bad they actually were), but it is interesting.
Even without that, it seems clear to me that they _can_ fix the problem with just software. After all, the software makes the exhaust clean enough when it detects it is running on a dyno. The question is whether the resulting loss in performance will be acceptable or not. The catalyst solution would presumably allow them to fix the issue with little or no impact on performance. And if the software fix reduced performance to naturally aspirated levels, I think most people would feel the car was totally undriveable. I once drove a VW Rabbit with a 1.5L diesel, and it was positively a menace on the road! Worse performance than the original VW bug! And the Rabbit was a relatively light car.
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All I've been reading is that the performance will be unacceptable (after software changes)... and if that is remotely true, then the class-action lawsuits will be flying! Owners will expect a buy-back or compensation of some sort, and dealers may be stuck with inventory that won't move (or will after massive price-cuts).
I had the Jetta in for service today and got a call from the dealership. They are offering to buy back the car from me. Yes, they realize the cars aren't recalled yet, but they said they are trying to get "ahead of the ball". I'm guessing that VW-USA or the dealers are figuring a buyback is coming and/or the changes to the software would make the car unacceptable, so are hoping to quell some of the anticipated uprising early.
I told them to go ahead and give me an appraisal. I also wanted to see what kind of deal they would give me on a conventionally powered VW Golf wagon (the replacement for the Jetta) and a Mazda 6 wagon, as the dealer also sells Mazdas. I figured it can't hurt anything. I really am not thrilled with the fit and finish of the VW product compared to the Japanese cars, but I'll keep an open mind.
I told them to go ahead and give me an appraisal. I also wanted to see what kind of deal they would give me on a conventionally powered VW Golf wagon (the replacement for the Jetta) and a Mazda 6 wagon, as the dealer also sells Mazdas. I figured it can't hurt anything. I really am not thrilled with the fit and finish of the VW product compared to the Japanese cars, but I'll keep an open mind.
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It will be interesting to hear how you made out, there's a lot of folks that are going to be in the same situation. Your dealer sounds like one of the good guys, hope all goes well. PJ
TR3driver
Great Pumpkin - R.I.P
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Unless they offer a really sweet deal, it might be worth waiting to see what VW comes up with for a patch. One lab reported finding only about a 10% drop in usable power/torque with the engine in "pass the test" mode (they thought). And there is at least a possibility of a financial settlement on top of that, but my guess is that it would only be available if you still own the car.
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" I really am not thrilled with the fit and finish of the VW product compared to the Japanese cars"
I wonder if VW's product has gotten that much worse or if the Japanese cars have gotten that much better over the years.
I wonder if VW's product has gotten that much worse or if the Japanese cars have gotten that much better over the years.
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in my experience, both.
The dealer didn't finish crunching all the numbers for me. I'm sitting around 19k for a gas powered Golf Wagon before they give me the buyback on the Jetta. Blue Book is still sitting between 11.5 - 12.5k. One would think the dealer would be a bit more generous for someone voluntarily coming forward than before a mandated buyback.
I was going to run this car into the ground. I will likely sit and wait and see what happens.
I was going to run this car into the ground. I will likely sit and wait and see what happens.
...and so it begins:
Got a letter from a law firm today wanting to represent me in a suit against VW. It was just a matter of time before the lawyers hopped in.
I have to take the Jetta back to the dealership for a leaky rear hatch. Each time it rains, the cargo area gets wet and the car smells like a skunk crawled up into until all the water evaporates. They tried to fix it once, but failed. My Sprite has a more water-tight trunk than the Jetta! They will appraise the Jetta and give me final numbers for an offer on a gas engined 2016 Golf Wagon.
The Golf Wagon does have some features that are nicer than the Jetta, I'm just not sure I want to make that jump to a new car or into another VW. As a musician, I need the wagon type body, but there are so few available unless I want to go with a crossover SUV. I like the thought of 4-wheel / all wheel drive, but the fuel economy penalty for the handful of times I would need AWD doesn't seem worth it. I thought the Mazda 6 was a beautiful wagon, but Mazda stopped producing it. The only other true wagons are the BMW and Volvo, both of which are very expensive and not really conducive to the kind of wear and tear I put on a wagon. I owned a Subaru Outback already and when I had a double head gasket failure at 83,000 miles, that soured me on them.
Got a letter from a law firm today wanting to represent me in a suit against VW. It was just a matter of time before the lawyers hopped in.
I have to take the Jetta back to the dealership for a leaky rear hatch. Each time it rains, the cargo area gets wet and the car smells like a skunk crawled up into until all the water evaporates. They tried to fix it once, but failed. My Sprite has a more water-tight trunk than the Jetta! They will appraise the Jetta and give me final numbers for an offer on a gas engined 2016 Golf Wagon.
The Golf Wagon does have some features that are nicer than the Jetta, I'm just not sure I want to make that jump to a new car or into another VW. As a musician, I need the wagon type body, but there are so few available unless I want to go with a crossover SUV. I like the thought of 4-wheel / all wheel drive, but the fuel economy penalty for the handful of times I would need AWD doesn't seem worth it. I thought the Mazda 6 was a beautiful wagon, but Mazda stopped producing it. The only other true wagons are the BMW and Volvo, both of which are very expensive and not really conducive to the kind of wear and tear I put on a wagon. I owned a Subaru Outback already and when I had a double head gasket failure at 83,000 miles, that soured me on them.
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