Bearing Nightmare

[swift6]

Forgot to mention that align honing usually costs less than $200. Boring new/different main caps to fit may or may not cost more.

 

[poolboy]

UmmYeahOk, you said..
"We're a special type of hobbyists. We sell working engines and scrap none working ones."
How do you go about evaluating these engines, anyway ? Is it just a matter of whether they run or not ?

 

[vettedog72]

I all ways use those little strips of plastic (plasta guage? {this stuff has to be fresh too}) to measure the bearing gap. It requires torquing the bolts to the spec. Calipers need calibration and as a hobbyist I never send them off for the service. So I use them as a reference, not as an accurate, absolute measurement. Also, using the plastic strips takes the math out of the equation. ha

 

[UmmYeahOk]

UPDATE:
https://www.britishcarforum.com/bcforum/ubbthreads.php/topics/650142

How many engines have you rebuilt?

Depends on your definition of "rebuilt" and "engine". I helped my husband build 2 wankel rotary engines. I didnt have to worry about any pistons in that one. I didnt really help with the 2.0 4 cylinder 2001 dodge neon engine, but I did see it progress. I witness my husband take apart a mustang v6, bmw i6, and a porsche v8. But by "apart", I mean the engine was not pulled, and the block itself was left alone in the car.

I helped my husband built my 5.0 mustang engine, which was a complete swap. Total hot rod stuff. 1986 block, performance cam, under drive pulleys, 2001 explorer heads, 1993 intake, whole bunch of other goodies. It was pretty reliable until it spun a bearing. Yes, you could say it was our fault, but technically this engine exchanged several hands before we got it, and one of the bolts wasnt torqued down to spec. It was one of those, we trust the guy, so why check. (actually my husband apparently checked a couple and since those were good, he assumed they all were.) It had 3,000 miles on it, so we knew it ran. One of the bolts was found in the oil pan itself. But since I knew something was up (gauge), there was no damage done to the engine. The crank was fine. After a new bearing set, the car has been reliable ever since. This is my daily driver. Its been a year since the swap, but then again, Ive only put 2000-3000 miles on it.

How many GT6/TR6 cranks do you think they turn on a regular basis? On uncommon engines, they may just take you at your word that you know what you’re doing and what you’re asking for. Especially if you insist that you do and they are only turning the crank for you. Did you give them any information on the crank? Was it right? You already said you had the wrong dimensions at first yourself.

I didnt give them any dimensions at all. When I found the wrong dimensions it was AFTER I got it back home. When I said what I said, I meant that if youre an oil lube, and some guy brings in a ferrari testarossa, and youve never seen one, let alone worked on one, you have no record of how many quarts youre supposed to put in it, and if you !@#$ something up, odds are you cant go down to autozone and get a replacement, I "assume" you are going to either ask the owner questions, or find some other way to research your answer.

I mean, thats not really a good analogy as normally youd just read the dipstick, but Ive heard of lubes that assume certain vehicles held certain amounts of oil, and added oil based on that belief alone.... ...even chains

If they had the block they probably would have measured it to see if it needed align-honing. After all, if it did it would be more work for them and that’s why they are there. They also would have been able to measure the difference between the bore in the mains and the journals on the crank and know definitively what size bearings would be needed.

I doubt these people measured anything at all. They are a performance shop that claim they work on everything but seem to specialize in mustangs. I only used them because they were the only shop who would even touch my mustang, because despite being a mustang, its apparently "special." I called around, asked tons of hobbyists/enthusiasts, they all recommended this place, and none of them knew a place that would machine a crank. I wanted my block hot tanked and I couldnt even find one. I even called a speed shop thats been around since the 50s, and they for some reason didnt even know one. Anyway, this shop would not refer me either, but offered to send it off for me. A little odd, but I guess they thought they were doing me a favor since I just happened to be there, with the crank in my trunk.

They can program a car... ...since late model vehicles have all the fancy computerized gizmos, but somehow they find ways to break things. Its odd, I know a great mechanic, but you dont want to use him for anything electrical. This shop is good with electrics, but you dont want to use them for mechanical.

They are so recommended that you have to schedule your appointments months on advance! Sure if youre a repeat customer, and youre having a problem, they'll fit you in, but man, 3 months in advance for a tune and dyno! They are so busy that if they received my crank with a tag that says .010, Im pretty sure they arent going to measure, assuming it is in fact .010, let alone do ANYTHING with my block had I given it to them.

UmmYeahOk, you said..
"We're a special type of hobbyists. We sell working engines and scrap none working ones."
How do you go about evaluating these engines, anyway ? Is it just a matter of whether they run or not ?

Well, lets see, the v6 had 167,000 miles on it. It was well maintained as Ive owned it for 10 years before it was pulled. It was VERY reliable. It was only pulled because no one respects a v6 mustang, and this daily driver was also a show car that has done a few autocrossing. Despite being such a GOOD engine, it was 145hp stock, so anyone who needed to swap in another motor typically just upgraded to a v8 anyway. It spent a year in my garage taking up valuable space. I almost scrapped this but thankfully it found a new home. $100

My husband flooded his neon engine, literally. There was no way to avoid this, trust me. It bent two pistons, but luckily didnt harm the cylinder wallas or anything else. He bought brand new pistons, head bolts, all sorta of stuff like that from mopar. He rebuilt that while swapping in another neon engine he found in a junk yard that cost him as much as the parts for the other engine. He rebuilt the flooded engine and kept it thinking he needed a spare engine around because he was going to turbo it, and being the "family sedan" wanted one in stock in case something happen. Since the car was the reliable "family sedan" he decided to just sell the turbo, and the motor. We had that thing for a year, thought about tossing that one too. Like the mustang, why that engine when there are RT and SRT engines available? No idea if it ran or not after the rebuild as we never tested it. Pretty sure it did thought. Sold it for $100-150 (dont remember)

Rotary engine. One was a turbo build, sold it with the car. $1000 My husband wanted to do a total restoration on this car so with everything stripped, without fixing everything that was wrong with it one by one, there was no way of knowing what was wrong with the car. So after the rebuild, the car wouldnt start. Since he rewired his engine harness during the exact same time as the rebuild, there was no way of trouble shooting what was wrong since EVERYTHING had changed.

The other rotary, NA, everyone wants the turbo motor, so why keep they NA? $50 for the aluminum housings, $20 for the irons. We kept two rotors for paper weights

When I said "special kind of hobbyists" I meant that we have limited garage space. We have a 2 car garage, which in most households, people park just ONE car. We park two. Due to all our special tools and equipment, I have to squeeze out of my mustang, and walk around the house and enter through the front door because I cant walk past the bikes and other crap to enter the door thats 5 ft away. Most hobbyists I know either dedicate half, or all the garage to just one car that they are restoring. Since we charish our daily drivers, we dont do this.

I all ways use those little strips of plastic (plasta guage? {this stuff has to be fresh too}) to measure the bearing gap. It requires torquing the bolts to the spec. Calipers need calibration and as a hobbyist I never send them off for the service. So I use them as a reference, not as an accurate, absolute measurement. Also, using the plastic strips takes the math out of the equation. ha

Thats what we tried to do. We got the plastigauge to work on my mustang but on the triumph is didnt even press, the bearings buckled

 

[MDCanaday]

I have a gt6 complete car for 100$(total rat)but ran when parked.call me if your interested.7852342005.
MD(mad dog)

 

[swift6]

How many engines have you rebuilt?

Depends on your definition of "rebuilt" and "engine".

Well by ‘engine’ I would mean an internal combustion engine so that would include the Rotaries but to keep it simple let’s stay with piston driven engines. To keep it even simpler we could concentrate on just the short block for discussion purposes. ‘Rebuild’, I suppose, could be as open to interpretation just as ‘restore’ is. However, I would define ‘rebuild’ as completely disassembling an engine. Properly cleaning and machining (block, crank, rods etc…) for new bearings, pitons etc… and then meticulously re-assemble. If you consider anything less a ‘rebuild’, then we are reading from separate books, and doing the same thing as skimming over rust with bondo, repainting and calling it body ‘restoration’. Doing less is a ‘repair’ or possibly a ‘refresh’ of bearings etc… Neither of which should be expected to last as long, or perform as well as a proper rebuild.
There are TWO critical surfaces for rod and main bearings. The crank journals are only one of those surfaces.

If they had the block they probably would have measured it to see if it needed align-honing. After all, if it did it would be more work for them and that’s why they are there. They also would have been able to measure the difference between the bore in the mains and the journals on the crank and know definitively what size bearings would be needed.

I doubt these people measured anything at all. They are a performance shop that claim they work on everything but seem to specialize in mustangs. I only used them because they were the only shop who would even touch my mustang, because despite being a mustang, its apparently "special." I called around, asked tons of hobbyists/enthusiasts, they all recommended this place, and none of them knew a place that would machine a crank. I wanted my block hot tanked and I couldnt even find one. I even called a speed shop thats been around since the 50s, and they for some reason didnt even know one. Anyway, this shop would not refer me either, but offered to send it off for me. A little odd, but I guess they thought they were doing me a favor since I just happened to be there, with the crank in my trunk.

Does that mean that they are or are not an actual “Automotive Machine Shop”, or are they just a performance automotive center? Do they do any of their own machine work or do they farm it all out while they do R&R and tuning work? It’s great that you asked around asking other hobbyists/enthusiasts. Did you let your fingers do the walking? I found this list of Automotive Machine Shops with a simple yellow pages search of the DFW area.

Blaines Motor Supply Inc 2144264400 4700 Scyene Rd Dallas TX 75210

City Motor Supply Inc 9724842611 11670 Harry Hines Blvd Dallas TX 75229

Commercial Head & Block Service 2146384774 2528 Irving Blvd Dallas TX 75207

Midwest Engine 2149481590 3502 E Kiest Blvd Dallas TX 75203

Shipp Rebuilders Supply Inc 2143885431 PO Box 271007 Dallas TX 75227

Trinity Casting Service Inc 2146314248 2126 Ruder St Dallas TX 75212

Accurate Engine Service, Inc. 8173354483 115 Arthur St Fort Worth TX 76107

Automotive Machine & Supply Inc 8173359331 212 Carroll St Fort Worth TX 76107

Forbes Rebuilt Engines 8173327643 2712 White Settlement Rd Fort Worth TX 76107

Mike Smiths Machine Shop Inc. 8176266800 2463 E Long Ave Fort Worth TX 76106

Petes Machine Shop 8178313592 4103 E Belknap St Fort Worth TX 76111

Precision Motor Rebuilding Company 8179213800 3346 South Fwy Fort Worth TX 76110

Wess Machine Shop 8178310581 2320 Higgins Ln Fort Worth TX 76111

In my experience machinists are a funny breed and they don’t suffer fools lightly. If you ask for a specific job, they will do that job but won’t ask you questions. They are in a professional service industry that usually services other professionals. They can be a wealth of knowledge and information but you generally have to ask them, nicely. Machinists are definitely a group that is not afraid of firing customers. Your opinions of professionals not withstanding, some are actually very good at what they do and can be willing to help and tutor amateurs through a process. Good machine shops have plenty of business and getting and keeping the business of a hobbyist is not on their priority list. Building a good client/service relationship takes more than simply walking through their door. They also don’t usually subscribe to “the customer is always right” attitude.

Machining the crank for oversized bearings without at least checking the alignment of the blocks main bearing caps and journals, in my opinion, was a short cut that caught you out. It is quite possible that you would not have had the issue if the crank was simply polished and the same size bearing were used instead of oversized bearings. It would have been a band-aid repair and not a rebuild though.

Other common mistakes for amateur engine builders are re-using fasteners that may have stretched, especially rod bolts, and not understanding that bearing caps, both rod and main, are mated. Mixing and matching the caps doesn’t work well at all.

I’m not accusing you of making all these mistakes. I’m mentioning them so that we can turn this thread into a teaching one so that others may learn. I’ve made several mistakes over the years. We all have. There should be no shame in making them as long as you don’t continue to make the same ones over and over. You have to know, what you don’t know, in order to learn.

 

[Twosheds]

‘Rebuild’, I suppose, could be as open to interpretation just as ‘restore’ is. However, I would define ‘rebuild’ as completely disassembling an engine. Properly cleaning and machining (block, crank, rods etc…) for new bearings, pitons etc… and then meticulously re-assemble. If you consider anything less a ‘rebuild’, then we are reading from separate books, and doing the same thing as skimming over rust with bondo, repainting and calling it body ‘restoration’.

You're pretty much spot-on with the FAA definition with regards to an aircraft engine, Swift6. Years ago, the FAA had no definition of "rebuilt" or "overhaul" and these words were used willy-nilly in maintenance records (logbooks). A maintenance record that stated that an engine was overhauled might mean that it was disassembled, cleaned, inspected, parts repaired and replaced as necessary, reassembled, and tested, or it might mean that it had a pretty coat of paint; the "Krylon Overhaul".

So the FAA made a regulation governing what must be done to an engine if the person making the logbook entry uses the words "overhaul" and "rebuilt".

This is from my lecture notes on the subject:

Records of Overhaul and Rebuilding (14 CFR §43.2 and AC 43.11)

If you make a logbook entry saying that you overhauled something, you must have:

1. Disassembled it

2. Cleaned it

3. Inspected it

4. Repaired it as necessary

5. Reassembled it

6. Tested it

All in accordance with the overhaul manual for the piece of equipment, using <span style="font-weight: bold">serviceable</span> tolerances and limits. If you don’t do one of these things, you can’t use the word overhaul in the logbook entry.

If you say that you have rebuilt something, you have to do 1 through 6 to <span style="font-weight: bold">NEW</span> (or approved over or undersize) tolerances. But only manufacturers of the product can rebuild it anyway. (14 CFR §43.3)

So just never use the word rebuilt and be very careful using the word overhaul. If you didn’t do everything the manual says to do during an overhaul, just say what you did.

 

[TR3driver]

Well by ‘engine’ I would mean an internal combustion engine

So my model airplane counts then?

4. Repaired it as necessary

Seems like that still leaves a lot open to interpretation/judgement. What if it already worked fine, and hence it wasn't "necessary" to "repair" anything?

At one extreme of interpretation, I've never "rebuilt" anything, since I have never bothered to inspect absolutely every thing. Not much point in testing the block for hardness (for example).

At the other extreme, even adjusting the valves would count as a "rebuild", since it wasn't necessary to repair anything (and I always inspect and clean things up a little).

<span style="font-style: italic">"The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will slip through your fingers." </span>

 

[Twosheds]

4. Repaired it as necessary

Seems like that still leaves a lot open to interpretation/judgement. What if it already worked fine, and hence it wasn't "necessary" to "repair" anything?

If you determine that it doesn't need repair in accordance with the manual, you may use it over again without repair.

That's what "repaired as necessary" means. It only needs repairing if repairing is necessary. The overhaul manual will tell you the limits. Dimensions and whatnot. You still have to do all the other steps to it in order to use the words "overhaul" or "rebuilt" (if you're the manufacturer).

Adjusting the valves and not doing everything else that the overhaul manual requires to be done is not even close to counting as "rebuild". You have to do everything the manual says to do to use the word 'rebuild".

You would write "Adjusted valves" if that's all you did.

 

[TR3driver]

and not doing everything else that the overhaul manual requires to be done

Ah, but following the "overhaul" manual was not part of the requirements you quoted.

A requirement like "do all the steps specified in the overhaul manual" would be a little less ambiguous, but is that the Haynes or the Bentley ?


Not that it matters anyway, as I don't plan to be working on FAA-licensed aircraft any time soon.

 

[Twosheds]

Ah, but following the "overhaul" manual was not part of the requirements you quoted.

Put your glasses on and look just below #6, Randall.

We could have had fun if you were my student!

 

[TR3driver]

Put your glasses on and look just below #6, Randall.

Oops!

In the immortal words of Emily Litella :

<span style="font-size: 14pt"><span style="font-family: 'Haettenschweiler'"> Never mind !</span></span>

 

[TR4nut]

Not that it matters anyway, as I don't plan to be working on FAA-licensed aircraft any time soon.

But if you did, I recommend that you follow the manual!

 

[UmmYeahOk]

Thought Id do an update.

Since I now have a new pre KC5000 engine I can say that pre 5000 engines have a 2" main and post 5000 have a 2.3". This means that no matter what crank they thought it was, .010 would mean that it was either 2.290 or 1.99 depending on crank. For them to say 2.3" is still .010 means that whatever specs they had stated that it was supposed to be 2.31" So the idea that they assumed it was the wrong size crank for that year MUST be wrong, and they had to either gotten some BS spec, or their tool needs recalibration.

Anyway, the place I took the crank, one broken cap and bearing to seems really confused and requested that they see the block itself. I explained that I did not own a truck, and it would be pointless for me to rent one. Since I lived nearby they offered to come look at it. And each time I called it sounded like it would be next day. Since my husband works at home I told them that theyre welcome to come by any time they like. But its been over 2 weeks since they first suggested the idea. Ive only called twice. Next time I call, Im just going to ask for the crank back.

I was told this new engine had about 50k miles on it. At first I was skeptical because I know the odometer only has so many digits, but tearing it apart its pretty much in perfect shape. Bearings are fine, crank is fine. Just gotta confirm that the piston rings are good, which I already have a set of.

 

[Guest]

I was told that the rods were now .020 and the main .010. So I order bearings.

First, I find it strange that a shop would turn them two different diameters as shops around here will turn BOTH to the same size to avoid any confusion when ordering parts...even if the other set of journals don't need to go down that far.

Second, I'm still trying to figure out what size the crank actually is now. I've read through the entire thread, and still can't figure it out. Is it standard, .010, .020? I've seen all mentioned.

The fact that the shop in now "confused" and wants to see the block might indicate that the crank is what it's was supposed to be, and eveything was fine and dandy, but perhaps the caps weren't put back in their original location pointed in their original direction. Also, tighening bolts down too far one one side will also make this happen occationally. Unless, the specs they are going off of are wrong.

Third, bringing the block in for a main alignment check DIDN'T contribute to this problem. Beating these poor folks up about tools, shortcuts, etc doesn't do ANYBODY any good. Don't you think they've suffered enough, don't you think they'll check ~NEXT TIME~ ?!?!?!?!

Mistakes do happen, but one thing I know, if Hap tells me he turned a crank to .010, you can bet your arse I don't need to mic it.

 

[UmmYeahOk]

I was told that the rods were now .020 and the main .010. So I order bearings.

1) First, I find it strange that a shop would turn them two different diameters as shops around here will turn BOTH to the same size to avoid any confusion when ordering parts...even if the other set of journals don't need to go down that far.

2) Second, I'm still trying to figure out what size the crank actually is now. I've read through the entire thread, and still can't figure it out. Is it standard, .010, .020? I've seen all mentioned.

The fact that the shop in now "confused" and wants to see the block might indicate that the crank is what it's was supposed to be, and eveything was fine and dandy, but perhaps the caps weren't put back in their original location pointed in their original direction. Also, tighening bolts down too far one one side will also make this happen occationally. Unless, the specs they are going off of are wrong.

3) Third, bringing the block in for a main alignment check DIDN'T contribute to this problem. Beating these poor folks up about tools, shortcuts, etc doesn't do ANYBODY any good. Don't you think they've suffered enough, don't you think they'll check ~NEXT TIME~ ?!?!?!?!

Mistakes do happen, but one thing I know, if Hap tells me he turned a crank to .010, you can bet your arse I don't need to mic it.

1) no comment, thats just what was done, or was claimed done

2) we were told the rods were .020 and the mains were .010, but after the incident, measuring again, the rods were 1.857 from the original 1.877, so the rods indeed were .020 but every main was 2.30 meaning their original would have to be 2.31, so if everyones right, TRIUMPH was wrong, as so were the company in israel that makes the bearings.

The caps were put on correctly in order as they all were numbered for safety even though they laid in order for months, in fact, they have #1 still at thier shop. They were torqued to spec, in order, not just one side of the engine all at once. So unless the torque spec is wrong, everything was done by the book.

3) how on earth do you think they suffered? Look, this shop isnt hurting for business. You pretty much have to schedule an appointment months in advance just to see them. They only offer to help me out on the spot since Im repeat business. Since THEY are NOT the ones that did the work, merely told me the specs they were told, its not like Im jumping down their throat threatening legal action, since THEY did NOTHING wrong.... ...other than wasting my time. Pretty much all Ive done so far is explained what happened. Havent asked for anything yet, not even a refund yet. They offered to investigate without being asked, so Im merely upset that they arent.

The company that DID do the work however most likely HASNT even heard of this incident at all, most likely WILL NEVER hear of this incident, and WILL NOT hurt their business any as everyone in the metroplex will still send off their stuff to them, and if one dinky little shop that rarely sends stuff to them suddenly stops, no harm done. In fact, they apparently send stuff to several different shops, so since Im not 100% sure they used a specific business, there is no way that I could ever even bring it up to such company, or even bash such company, as I cant prove that I did business with them, especially since my receipt for the job is through the company that didnt even touch it

Cliff Notes: Only person suffering is me. Neither company could care less, as why on earth could they possibly be "suffering?"
__________________________________________

I have no clue why on earth he would need to see the block anyway. He, nor the company he works for, did any work on the crank. If it originally should be 2.300" then if its not 2.290, than its not .010 like THEY and I were told. If its 2.300" than it is not .010. If for some odd reason he thinks it should be 2.310, then, and only then, would he might need to see the block. But if that is the case, I would like to know where he, and the company that REALLY did the work, got their numbers from.

 

[Twosheds]

Cliff Notes: Only person suffering is me. Neither company could care less, as why on earth could they possibly be "suffering?"

I could be mis-reading Kellysguy's post, but I think he's saying that the "poor folks" who have suffered enough are you and your husband.

 

[vettedog72]

I'm in agreement with twosheads. You have suffered enough. Also, get any and every part to your motor out of that shop and go to a good machine shop. The new shop will be able to see the damage and know what needs to be done. If you can not suck up the injustice you apparently received file a claim with them for the damages they caused. After the apparent run around I would not accept any service they may offer. Life is short to continue a report with them and you need to move on to another shop. If you want to get back at the guys, get lawyer.

 

[UmmYeahOk]

I'm in agreement with twosheads. You have suffered enough. Also, get any and every part to your motor out of that shop and go to a good machine shop. The new shop will be able to see the damage and know what needs to be done. If you can not suck up the injustice you apparently received file a claim with them for the damages they caused. After the apparent run around I would not accept any service they may offer. Life is short to continue a report with them and you need to move on to another shop. If you want to get back at the guys, get lawyer.

Can you recomend a good shop? Cuz that's how the problem all started. I asked several shops for their recomendations, shops that rebuild engines all the time. I've asked other car enthuiasts too, offline and off. If find it VERY odd how no one knew anything. Even an actual machining shop who we thought might could do it didn't know of one. But apparently they're out there, if the shop I went with uses two different ones.

They offered to send it out just like they would with any customer, but all I asked for was a recomendation. It's all strange. Everytime I asked they would never give me a name. Only now they "think" it might be a place. Problem is, I had the job done in October. What I also don't understand is why they are offering to help, when any normal person would just automatically place blame on the machineist, give contact info to the customer, and have them harass them for you rather than waste your time since time is money, which is why you can't send your engine guy to look at the block because you're so busy

 

[Guest]

Yeah, I was talking about y'all and folks here bashing y'all about what you did and how you did it.

So, if STD main is 2.30, then all they did was polish it, so someone owes you some $$$ as a mislable is their fault. You shouldn't have to mic it as you ~PAID~ them to do it for you. Get a lawyer.

No one wants to give a name cause they want stuff sent through them to make $$$.

Sue the shop you brought it to, you'll find out what's up. There should be sevral places in DFW. I lived/worked there in the automotive industry 21 years ago and they had plenty shops around.

There is a guy named Gene Quick in the FT. Worth area. He mainly deals w/ musclecars. He would know of a crank shop but he might want to send it in for you as well. He might be dead by now too. You should be able to have custom main caps made for this engine as they do it for small block Chevy's and Fords. All you need is the right material and a ~competent~ machine shop should be able to make them for you, but it'll cost a little $$$.

Gene had a shop in Keller years ago, He might be in NRH or Grapevine. I can't remember. He is a character. You won't find him online. If you can find a serious Mopar guy, he should know how to find Gene.