Bearing Nightmare

[UmmYeahOk]

SUCCESS!!!!!
Triumph Enthusiasts FTMFW!!!!!!

Guy called me back. It's mine. I just hafta find a truck and trailer.

And people say GT6es are rare... ...more rare than my mustang, yes

Also, I called the shop I dropped off the crank to. You see I knew they shipped it off to someone else, I may of finally got the name too. They wouldn't give it to me when I asked for a referal. Anyway this shop wants me to bring in the crank so they can take their own measurements before talking with the shop they sent it to. We'll see how well that goes

I SHOULDNT have to. I SHOULD be able to trust the word of a professional.

OTOH, if you are building your own engine, you SHOULD have the right tools for the job and you SHOULD use them.

ah, but if I had the right tools, I wouldnt need to hire a professional.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:]BTW, a digital caliper isn't the right tool for the job. But a suitable micrometer can be had for less than the price of the bearings. [/QUOTE]
Are you a member on RX7club.com?

Just thought it was funny because someone had a discussion on this very thing with my husband BEFORE and after this fiasco.

 

[TR3driver]

Are you a member on RX7club.com?

Nope, not me. But it's a very common lesson, one I learned the hard way when I was about 16. And it's been repeated in just about every article I've ever read on building an engine. Mistakes happen, and you as the assembler are the last line of defense in catching them.

If the inserts actually buckled as you say, then most likely they were the wrong inserts. The crank may be fine.

 

[dklawson]

While a set of micrometers is the right tool for measuring crank journals accurately, in this situation a set of vernier or digital calipers would be enough to tell you what ballpark you are in. You can make calipers read almost any number you want... but they certainly are good enough to screen within steps of 0.010" in diameter to tell you what shells you need. After that, the PlastiGage will tell you the running clearances.

I'm glad you've locked in on a donor engine. I'll tell my friend you don't need the bearing caps. Was the engine you located also a Mk1? From memory, the heads are different (intake/exhaust port positioning) on the later GT6 engines so be careful when mixing and matching parts.

 

[UmmYeahOk]

I'm glad you've locked in on a donor engine. I'll tell my friend you don't need the bearing caps. Was the engine you located also a Mk1? From memory, the heads are different (intake/exhaust port positioning) on the later GT6 engines so be careful when mixing and matching parts.

it's listed as a mk1 so hopefully it is

 

[HerronScott]

Also, I called the shop I dropped off the crank to. You see I knew they shipped it off to someone else, I may of finally got the name too. They wouldn't give it to me when I asked for a referal. Anyway this shop wants me to bring in the crank so they can take their own measurements before talking with the shop they sent it to. We'll see how well that goes

You think they'll give you a refund for the error?

Scott

 

[bgbassplyr]

As Prez Reagan said,"Trust but Verify".

 

[UmmYeahOk]

Also, I called the shop I dropped off the crank to. You see I knew they shipped it off to someone else, I may of finally got the name too. They wouldn't give it to me when I asked for a referal. Anyway this shop wants me to bring in the crank so they can take their own measurements before talking with the shop they sent it to. We'll see how well that goes

You think they'll give you a refund for the error?

Scott

Well I took the crank and one cracked bearing cap to the shop. Theyre going to talk to the other shop tomorrow and give me a call. They called me a half an hour after we left but I didnt hear it, and they didnt leave a message (theyre closed)

They better refund me, but they would probably have to refund the shop I dropped it off at, and then that shop refund me, since theyre the ones I paid.

They technically should buy me a new engine (yeah, I know the one I found is a blessing, but I was looking at $500 engines + shipping) Heck, if its #s matching, they need to pay to repair that.

As Prez Reagan said,"Trust but Verify".

Youre asking me to believe a republican? ...who suffered from alzheimers and dementia? =)

 

[Richter12x2]

While a set of micrometers is the right tool for measuring crank journals accurately, in this situation a set of vernier or digital calipers would be enough to tell you what ballpark you are in. You can make calipers read almost any number you want... but they certainly are good enough to screen within steps of 0.010" in diameter to tell you what shells you need. After that, the PlastiGage will tell you the running clearances.

We actually measured the bearing journals with digital calipers, several times because they're prone to being off by a bit if you get the diagonal at all. We also used them to read the inner diameter of the bearings as they came from the box, and verified the number was bigger. Then, I put the bearings on the journal of the crank and it actually had enough slack that I was worried they would be too big.

However, when they were snapped into the journals, it decreased the diameter (across the open end of the bearings.) Because I had so much slack, and the bearings fit the cap and engine perfectly, I didn't bolt them together without the crank to reverify diameter. With the cap holding the bearing into diameter, it was too small for the crank, but just by a few thousandths, so after laying the crank in, it still looked fine, although you could have probably stuck a .02" feeler gauge between the crank and bearing on the bottom, where you can't see. As I was torquing evenly to 55 lb/ft, I heard a little 'click' that was the mains breaking, but I wrote that off as the bearings seating, because it wasn't like a gunshot or anything. After the last two made the same noise, I assumed that was just what they did. After all, the 302 Ford main bearings didn't 'snap in' the way these did, they're the right fixed diameter to start.

So these were measured about 6 times before they went into the engine, with a digital caliper that was rezero'd multiple times, and each measurement was rechecked 3 or 4 times to ensure they were close. What got me was the fact that I believed what a professional machine shop told me, the fact that I didn't quadruple check them by bolting the mains in before the crank, and the fact that the Haynes guide doesn't include the measurements and tolerances for a crank with 2.3" mains, only the 2.0" mains. If the Haynes guide had listed 2.295-2.305" as the correct diameter, I would have known it wasn't .010 under when I checked it.

So excuse me for not being perfect. It's easy to say "You should have checked this or done this" but how many times would you really recheck the same thing? Because three wasn't enough.

 

[hilsideser]

.......

 

[dklawson]

Richter12x2, I in no way implied that you did anything wrong or should have had to check behind the machine shop. I believe you are confusing my comments with those of someone else.

My comments were only to say that calipers are good enough for screening diameters. If you took my comments any other way, I'm sorry, that was not my intention.

 

[swift6]

So excuse me for not being perfect. It's easy to say "You should have checked this or done this" but how many times would you really recheck the same thing? Because three wasn't enough.

The original criticisms came after your wife stated that there was essentially no need to measure. Read the first post of the thread. The fact that you did measure, three times, was not even mentioned before your post. If that had been mentioned, I'm sure the measuring criticisms would not have surfaced. No need to be upset at people who did not have the whole story.

 

[UmmYeahOk]

Richter12x2, I in no way implied that you did anything wrong or should have had to check behind the machine shop. I believe you are confusing my comments with those of someone else.

My comments were only to say that calipers are good enough for screening diameters. If you took my comments any other way, I'm sorry, that was not my intention.

So excuse me for not being perfect. It's easy to say "You should have checked this or done this" but how many times would you really recheck the same thing? Because three wasn't enough.

The original criticisms came after your wife stated that there was essentially no need to measure. Read the first post of the thread. The fact that you did measure, three times, was not even mentioned before your post. If that had been mentioned, I'm sure the measuring criticisms would not have surfaced. No need to be upset at people who did not have the whole story.

I appologize. When this all happened he was very upset with everyone including himself. He was upset that he didnt measure, so that's what I said happened. But I saw him with the caliper several times before measuring. I just confused "I didn't quadruple check" with "I didn't measure."

When I got it back, I'm pretty sure he measured but did not have the correct specs for this specific crank shaft. This is why the first set of .010 bearings didn't fit, and possibly why the shop assumed it was milled .010. I don't have any specs on either shaft with me so I dont know. Maybe someone here does and can ellimitate my theory. I also don't know where my husband got his specs. It's just a shame we didn't have them from the start

Anyway about the direct attack, I am assuming that my husband either meant to quote the micrometer statement because as I mentioned, this micrometer vs caliper discussion was going on in a different forum that he frequents. To defend the use of a digital caliper over the use of a micrometer would be defending his own opinion on the subject. This is why I believe either he quoted the wrong person, or used the quote feature as a way to announce to everyone involved in the thread that he did in fact measure.

 

[TR3driver]

So excuse me for not being perfect.

Yer excused!
:laugh:

No one is perfect, we all make mistakes.

BTW, I am sorry for your misfortune. I was NOT trying to say "it's your fault" or anything like that; just trying to explain that you do, indeed, "have" to check.

"Professional" only means that they get paid for their work in money. Generally (not always), that also means they work as quickly as possible, so they get more money. Double-checking doesn't pay them, but it does pay you. Ditto the guy at the parts counter (and the guy that puts the bearings in the box, etc.).

 

[TR4nut]

So when is the new block with bearing caps showing up? If I were a little further north, I'd offer to help throw it in my pickup!

 

[UmmYeahOk]

Thanks but we also already had someone from the above mentioned forum offer. I decided to use my cousin instead. We are going to pick it up Saturday after cars and coffee (just assuming everyone here already knows what that is.) I want to pick it up as soon as possible just in the off chance he decides to give it to someone else or sells it. Triumph owners don't seem to be the type that would do that, but I better be safe than sorry.

Talking with him, he said hes had a couple gt6es in the past. I'm guessing this was the remains of a donor car he was using. I hope that I wI'll get a chance to see his project car. Even cooler if it's finished

 

[swift6]

They technically should buy me a new engine (yeah, I know the one I found is a blessing, but I was looking at $500 engines + shipping) Heck, if its #s matching, they need to pay to repair that.

So pulling info together from two different threads we find that the only thing they did was turn a crank? Based on the numbers that you gave them they tell you the crank is now .010" undersized. You say they should buy you a new engine or pay to fully repair a block they did not break?

Since they did not have the block, could not check the alignment of the mains or verify if they needed to be align honed or not and therefore could not verify the correct size of the crank to the block. What about it is their fault?

Seems to me that the machine shop did nothing wrong. They had a crank turned for you.

Sounds as if you were trying to take some short cuts rebuilding an engine and it bit you in the ass. Did you have the rods machined for new bearings too or were you expecting no problems there either?

 

[UmmYeahOk]

I did not know dropping off a block was a requirement. Seems to me that if they turn cranks all day long that means they know the specs and block is not needed. If they had any question whatsoever they could have asked for it. Had I left the crank and block there they would have just sent the crank to be machined and I would still be in this mess.

If they assumed it was the earlier smaller crank, measuring before turning they would have known there was a size difference. If someone mistakenly told them it was for a 67 mustang gt instead of a 67 triumph gt6 then I would expect they would notice that something was up because their measurements wouldn't add up. (ignore the obvious engine difference)

 

[hondo402000]

I remember the first time I rebuilt an engine, pulled the crank out, thought I would be smart and put the flywheel bolts back in the crank, I must have tightened one too much and put a dimple on the other side of the crank where the rear main bearing went which also was the thurst bearing, that was after I had the crank gound and polished, put the engine back together and fired it up, actually drove it for a week and had this awful noise when the clutch was depress, so I ended up having to pull the engine again. the rear thrust bearing was destroyed, loads of metal in the sump, oil filter, luckly they groung the crank again. but all that time and money,,, so dont feel bad happens to all of us

Unfortunately every new project I end up learning another lesson the hard way

Hondo

 

[Brosky]

I put a set of new 442 main bearing cap bolts, fresh out of the parts bin at the GM dealer where I worked back in 1970. I never checked the length, but I did check the part number and it was correct.

Too bad that the bolts were mislabeled. They were 1/4" too long. When I thought they were torqued to spec, they were indeed, but they had bottomed out.

Yes, I started the engine.

No it didn't run very long after I heard the noise.

Yes, I had to pull it again on my own time and fix it. It needed a crank and all new bearings.

No, I did not plasti-gauge the bearings because I was i a hurry and everything was new, so why shouldn't it fit properly?

I was a certified professional at that time. We make mistakes too by assuming that one part of an equation is correct and not checking the other. Ultimately, it was my fault for not lining up one bolt to the other or plasti-gauging the bearings. If I had taken 20 seconds to do that, I would have saved many hours of labor.

You can be sure I never made that mistake again.

 

[swift6]

How many engines have you rebuilt?

I did not know dropping off a block was a requirement.

For the bearings to seat and crush correctly they need to be put into a perfectly round bores. Align-honing the block is an important step in ensuring that the mains are truly round, ensuring that the clearances around the entire circumference of the bearing bores will be consistent, and no stress from improper alignment will contribute to failures. This is usually a required step on an engine like the Triumph I-6 with only four mains as it is minimal support for six cylinder crankshaft designed to spin over 3,000 rpm. Through heat cycles and hundreds of millions of revolutions can force the bores out of round. This accounts for some of the bearing wear as well but it only shows up on the side with the spinning crank. That wear is from the centerline of the crank being shifted as the block shifts and the crank flex's.

Seems to me that if they turn cranks all day long that means they know the specs and block is not needed. If they had any question whatsoever they could have asked for it.

How many GT6/TR6 cranks do you think they turn on a regular basis? On uncommon engines, they may just take you at your word that you know what you’re doing and what you’re asking for. Especially if you insist that you do and they are only turning the crank for you. Did you give them any information on the crank? Was it right? You already said you had the wrong dimensions at first yourself.

Had I left the crank and block there they would have just sent the crank to be machined and I would still be in this mess.

If they had the block they probably would have measured it to see if it needed align-honing. After all, if it did it would be more work for them and that’s why they are there. They also would have been able to measure the difference between the bore in the mains and the journals on the crank and know definitively what size bearings would be needed.


BTW, if you didn’t have your rods resized you could be in for similar problems there with new bearings. Especially if you’re installing new rod bolts, for much of the same reasons. New bearings need new round bores. Or at least bores that are within the acceptable tolerances of round according to the bearing manufacturer.