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Another good reason to drive old cars
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Exactly my thoughts when I heard this on NPR today, John. Scary stuff!
BustedKnuckles
Jedi Knight
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Misuse of the new technology is unsettling, but I'd much rather tune and engine from my laptop or diagnose its ills through it's own CPU than I would spend hours in a cold garage trying to track down the cause of bad performance to a small air leak or a sticking breaker plate.
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I haven't seen it but I think a variation of this is part of the premise of the latest Fast & Furious movie - where the villan can imobilize electronics on new cars.
interestingly, i saw another ( I think TED talk) where they were discussing internet vulnerability and the speaker was making the point that things like NASA rockets were vulnerable to hacking because they use internet protocols - which he attributed to laziness on the part of the programmers.
interestingly, i saw another ( I think TED talk) where they were discussing internet vulnerability and the speaker was making the point that things like NASA rockets were vulnerable to hacking because they use internet protocols - which he attributed to laziness on the part of the programmers.
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As if I needed more reasons to not buy a new car.
Silverghost
Yoda
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Don't look at it as reasons NOT to by a new car.....look at it as reasons TO buy an OLD car!!
"You see dear.....new cars just aren't as SAFE as old cars are....."
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Reading that article got me wondering - is any of that possible without "plugging in" something from the outside?
Hacking via the OBD2 port is pretty obvious; even the service guy doesn't really know what's inside the box he's got plugged into your car.
But at a very basic level - do any of us really know what's pre-programmed into the chips we have in nearly every digital device we own? Laptops, iphones, tablets, TVs, programmable thermostats, washer/dryers, etc. The chips aren't made by the same company which makes the devices - and who know what's really coded into the chips before they even leave the factory.
Remember Stuxnet?
The mind boggles.
Tom
Hacking via the OBD2 port is pretty obvious; even the service guy doesn't really know what's inside the box he's got plugged into your car.
But at a very basic level - do any of us really know what's pre-programmed into the chips we have in nearly every digital device we own? Laptops, iphones, tablets, TVs, programmable thermostats, washer/dryers, etc. The chips aren't made by the same company which makes the devices - and who know what's really coded into the chips before they even leave the factory.
Remember Stuxnet?
The mind boggles.
Tom
martx-5
Yoda
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It's really not that easy to hack the computers in cars. This quote taken from the article explains how the hacker has to get in.
"More importantly, as university researchers documented in papers published in 2010 and 2011, on-board components such as CD players, Bluetooth for hands-free calls, and "telematics" units for OnStar and similar road-side services make it possible for an attacker to remotely execute malicious code. The research is still in its infancy, but its implications are unsettling. Trick a driver into loading the wrong CD or connecting the Bluetooth to the wrong handset, and it's theoretically possible to install malicious code on one of the ECUs."
The other entry point is of course the OBD connector. That is the most troubling, as at least here in NY, once a year the inspection station has to access it for emission compliance, and of course for problem diagnosis. Better hope that your mechanic is trustworthy.
"More importantly, as university researchers documented in papers published in 2010 and 2011, on-board components such as CD players, Bluetooth for hands-free calls, and "telematics" units for OnStar and similar road-side services make it possible for an attacker to remotely execute malicious code. The research is still in its infancy, but its implications are unsettling. Trick a driver into loading the wrong CD or connecting the Bluetooth to the wrong handset, and it's theoretically possible to install malicious code on one of the ECUs."
The other entry point is of course the OBD connector. That is the most troubling, as at least here in NY, once a year the inspection station has to access it for emission compliance, and of course for problem diagnosis. Better hope that your mechanic is trustworthy.
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Hi Art - "So, if you keep the On-Star, wrong bluetooth handset and bogus CDs out of your car, there's no possibility of hacking into the ECU."
I assume that means keeping a bogus OBD2 plug out of your car too - altho' no one I know actually "inspects" them at the shop.
But how many people will ever remember that? Several guys I know love their bluetooth devices - and they have several. They use OnStar frequently, and borrow CDs from dozens of people.
Eek.
I assume that means keeping a bogus OBD2 plug out of your car too - altho' no one I know actually "inspects" them at the shop.
But how many people will ever remember that? Several guys I know love their bluetooth devices - and they have several. They use OnStar frequently, and borrow CDs from dozens of people.
Eek.
martx-5
Yoda
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Well Nutmeg, after thinking about that OBD port, I edited my post actually while you were posting your response, as that is the most troubling aspect of this. As far as the other items, well, being careful and prudent is what's called for here. As far as On-Star goes, well that's sorta like the OBD port, an easy access.
I'm quite sure that the auto makers know about this potential problem and hopefully will do whatever they have to in order to prevent access of the car's ECUs from unauthorized sources.
Until then, we'll just have to be more careful how we interact with our automobiles.
I'm quite sure that the auto makers know about this potential problem and hopefully will do whatever they have to in order to prevent access of the car's ECUs from unauthorized sources.
Until then, we'll just have to be more careful how we interact with our automobiles.
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Art - remember Twilight Zone? Great episode "The monsters are due on Maple Street". (1960)
"Unknown forces" begin wreaking havoc with a neighborhood's electricity supply. Some houses have power, some don't. Next day, other houses lose power, others get it back. Strange things begin to happen. The electrical power goes out. Cars won't start. The phones don't work. Society crumbles - neighbors turn into crazed beasts in total panic, attacking each other. Last scene shows extra-terrestrials on a hilltop, controlling the power supply. "They pick the most dangerous enemy they can find - and it's themselves."
"Unknown forces" begin wreaking havoc with a neighborhood's electricity supply. Some houses have power, some don't. Next day, other houses lose power, others get it back. Strange things begin to happen. The electrical power goes out. Cars won't start. The phones don't work. Society crumbles - neighbors turn into crazed beasts in total panic, attacking each other. Last scene shows extra-terrestrials on a hilltop, controlling the power supply. "They pick the most dangerous enemy they can find - and it's themselves."
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There's mainly two things I disagree with on new cars, one being electronically controlled throttle and electronically controlled brakes! Our Jeep Liberty has an electrically operated throttle and I hate it! What if it goes haywire and opens up, (it's happened before, not to us thank God)! Be careful if you say just turn off the ignition, in a panic you could turn it too far and lock the steering wheel, not a good thing at high speed! Step on the brakes??? The electronically controlled anti skid system would probably not over power a racing engine And what was so bad about the old standard power brakes? The new with anti skid, anti lock up and anti this and anti that has gotten slightly out of hand! Maybe I'm slightly pessimistic on this subject, but wherever there's change, there's money to be made. Who pays out more money, the consumer, who's on the receiving end, guess! PJ
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You are 100% right PJ, electronic components are way more apt to fail, and fail in a catastrophic way than a cable, linkage, or pedal.
mikephillips
Yoda
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My concern is what happens when it's several years old, has 100k miles on it and is "maintained" no better than many cars are where the owner isn't a car person and it gets looked at only when it doesn't run. Steer, brake, throttle by wire, don't think I want that.
martx-5
Yoda
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Yes you are somewhat pessimistic. The fact of the matter is that unintended acceleration can be controlled with just the brakes. They will overcome a racing engine. See the link below...although several years old, the article still applies.
https://www.caranddriver.com/features/how-to-deal-with-unintended-acceleration
Even a 540 hp Roush Mustang was able to be hauled down just using the brakes, although that car did take longer to stop.
Other options include putting in neutral, stepping on the clutch if a manual, and the worst option is to turn off the ignition. As it states in the article, without the engine running you will lose your power steering and vacuum for the brake booster.
As a side note, I've driven several cars with electronic throttles that were very disconcerting. However if designed properly, such as the two Mazdas I have with them, you can't tell the difference between them and a cable operated throttle.
Look guys, this stuff is here to stay. You'll just have to say "How I learned to stop worrying and love the bomb".
Oh, BTW, actual throttle plate butterflies are on the way out. The latest from the electronic whiz boys for controlling engine power to to control the lift and timing of the intake valves. Link below...
https://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/27/automobiles/27valve.html?_r=0
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THIS is the threat I have concern over: https://washingtonexaminer.com/mass...h-emp-disaster-barely-avoided/article/2533727
Keith_M
Jedi Knight
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Now wouldn't that be interesting. If an EMP pulse knocked out all the modern vehicles and the only working cars were the 30+ year old classics. Come to think of it, that's just one more reason to collect LBC's. It's a survivalist thing.
Of course, none of the gas pumps would probably work...
