Another Camber/Caster Problem

[Bob_Blue_BJ8]

I have my Phase 2 BJ8 in the shop for a long list of mechanical issues. It turns out the car was in a major accident somewhere prior to the mid-80's (thanks to a pic from Steve Byers showing a PO in the car back then with a shroud and front fenders from an older model).

The car was restored by a PO in the mid-90's and looks very nice. However, we've now found that the frame was bent and the restorer only got the shock towers partially back to where they should be. Left side tower is back 1" and inboard 1". Right side is outboard 1". Camber is off on both sides and caster is probably bad at least on the left side.

No frame shop in my area will touch it. A specialist shop in PA says they can fix it by welding on new towers from a donor frame for about $4K-$5K. That blows my budget for this year's fixes (tranny rebuild, clutch, throw-out bearing, differential seals,king pin honing, front suspension bushings, etc.)

I'm looking for a good, safe driver and not a concourse. I've read the threads here about adjustable shock tower plates and eccentric bushings for camber issues and shimming that might help caster. (Really going to miss Dave Russell) I'm thinking about trying those approaches to get it on the road within budget and maybe later getting it up to PA for the frame fix.

I'd appreciate any comments or advice from you folks - especially updates on the eccentric bushings (I think it was Randy Forbes who tried them and Dave didn't think much of them).

I see Moss sells the adjustable camber plates for $500+ while Dennis Welch in the UK has similar plates for a whole lot less. Anyone familiar with these?

 

[GregW]

Hi Bob,
That makes me mad hearing a restorer released a car with that kind of damage, though I don't know the specific details as to why that happened. I don't think the eccentric bushings are going to give you the needed adjustment, an inch would fall outside the kingpin hole where the bushing fits. Do you know for sure what is out of spec? the towers themselves or are the frame rails twisted?

 

[Bob_Blue_BJ8]

Greg,

Thanks for responding so fast! I agree that the bushings probably won't do it. So far, we've only checked the camber with a level against the tires. Left top is inboard 1/2 inch and right top is outboard 1/2 inch. The frame rails were bent and an attempt was made to straighten them. On both sides, additional steel plates were welded to the frame apparently to strengthen those sections most badly damaged. Then a whole lot of bondo was slathered over the repairs prior to painting to hide the problem. The car actually handles pretty well. The only time it acts up is when I corner at speed. It becomes a bit unsettled for a second as I straighten out.

By the way, when the left front end got smacked, it must have translated to the rear twisting the right rear up by about 1 inch. The restorer addressed that by heating the right leaf spring to get it to sag leveling the rear end. They actually got the top leaf to buckle up! We've replaced the rear springs and put a spacer under the right one to lower that side.

 

[nevets]

"Do you know for sure what is out of spec? the towers themselves or are the frame rails twisted?"

Good point! Crash damage is not so straightforward. It's a 3D universe, and difficult to accurately identify where things should be in the X Y and Z axis.

 

[Bob_Blue_BJ8]

Oh,yeah ... I forgot to mention that we're buying a tool to measure camber/caster. Can't wait to see how far out of spec it is!

Even though I probably got shafted when buying the car, I still love it, feel privileged to have this piece of history and obligated to care for it the best I can. If this sounds hokey, remember - I LOVE THIS CAR!

 

[Patrick67BJ8]

Oh,yeah ... I forgot to mention that we're buying a tool to measure camber/caster. Can't wait to see how far out of spec it is!

Even though I probably got shafted when buying the car, I still love it, feel privileged to have this piece of history and obligated to care for it the best I can. If this sounds hokey, remember - I LOVE THIS CAR!

I love my car too and it had two wrecks back in the 70's and one of them really messed up the frame but it wasn't noticeable until a couple of years ago when I started to do a frame up restoration. It was sooooooooo bad, I had to have a Jule-Enterprises frame done. There was no abnormal tire wear, but both motor mounts were "tilted" equal amounts and then there was the compression bulges in the frame. If you "love" this car get a professional opinion on it from someone who really knows Austin Healey frames. You'll be glad you did in the long run.
I believe Marty at Jule can also do frame repairs as well.
No financial interest...only a satisfied customer.
Patrick

 

[GregW]

By the way, when the left front end got smacked, it must have translated to the rear twisting the right rear up by about 1 inch....We've replaced the rear springs and put a spacer under the right one to lower that side.

If it were me, I'd toss out all notions of what I <span style="font-style: italic">thought</span> was wrong and spec the entire frame. If you have dropped the right rear, that may affect the camber problem you are seeing in the front on both sides. Get the whole picture before you replace anything because you might actually make double work for yourself.
When checking the caster, remember that the bottom of the frame in front of the outriggers isn't parallel to the top of the frame. There is a taper of about a 1½°.

The restorer addressed that by heating the right leaf spring to get it to sag leveling the rear end. They actually got the top leaf to buckle up!

That's just lame.

 

[Bob_Blue_BJ8]

Thanks, Patrick. You're right, a new frame is definitely the best way to go. Replacing the bad sections with parts of a donor frame is second, I guess.

Problem is, I already checked Jule and Kilmartin. Jule frame goes for $3,200, but it will cost about $10,000 to take the car off the old frame and put it on the Jule. My annual Healey budget is around $5K to $6K right now. The mortgage will be paid off in a couple of years and then I'll have more $$$ to play with (unless I start saving up for the Allard J2X, but that's another story ...)

So, I'm looking for a temporary, inexpensive but safe fix so I can drive it while saving up the bucks for a major overhaul.

 

[Patrick67BJ8]

Thanks, Patrick. You're right, a new frame is definitely the best way to go. Replacing the bad sections with parts of a donor frame is second, I guess.

Problem is, I already checked Jule and Kilmartin. Jule frame goes for $3,200, but it will cost about $10,000 to take the car off the old frame and put it on the Jule. My annual Healey budget is around $5K to $6K right now. The mortgage will be paid off in a couple of years and then I'll have more $$$ to play with (unless I start saving up for the Allard J2X, but that's another story ...)

So, I'm looking for a temporary, inexpensive but safe fix so I can drive it while saving up the bucks for a major overhaul.

I don't think you have a tempoary safe fix with the problems you've described. I also don't believe you'll get out of Jule that cheap because there will be other things(sheet metal) that need replaced that aren't always evident even with the car stripped down. I had my car stripped down and there was a few things that showed up after it was at Jule and was sandblasted.

I am happy with the quality of work and received my car with the body panels hung and the chassis painted the color that I'm going to paint the car. I was going to do a good patch on my car too until I started stripping off parts and saw what was underneath.

You can expect to spend abut $36k to do a Healey doing a lot of the work yourself except for the paint and body work.
Always better and cheaper to drive a safe car if there's any doubt
Patrick

 

[Bob_Blue_BJ8]

Greg,

Thanks for the advice - plan to measure everything.

But I need a little more help here. I'm new to this, so bear with me. You said:

"When checking the caster, remember that the bottom of the frame in front of the outriggers isn't parallel to the top of the frame. There is a taper of about a 1½°."

How does that affect checking the caster?

 

[GregW]

It is more an FYI for when you start digging in to pinpoint the problem area(s). For instance, using a square on the bottom of the frame rail, the shock tower won't look vertical.

 

[LEERIVAS]

Didn't eschneider have a BJ8 frame rail for sale?

https://www.britishcarforum.com/bcforum/u...ns_w#Post658387

 

[BUNDYRUM]

Hello Bob Blue BJ8,

Have you looked in the back of a workshop manual as I thought there was a quick reference to basic dimensions for checking the frame. I don't have mine with me at present (yes I know it's only 01:06 am and that's no excuse)but I thought there was one there.

The taper that GregW is talking about positions the kingpin through the top and bottom attach points.

Could you take the car in to a wheel alignment place just to get an idea of where the wheels are pointing?. I know there is only toe in to adjust but id you tell them you wanted to see where it is right now it may be quicker. If you do this have them let you sit in the car so it's trying to replicate what it's sitting like on the road when your driving.

Best regards,

bundyrum.

 

[dancrim]

As a rule, welding a frame is a no, no. They become brittle and can crack.
Old guy told me that. Considering handling and all the effort, a new frame
might be the way to go.

 

[anthony7777]

greg, this an unfortunate situation in that even with the engine mounts replaced the car will most likely need to be placed on a rack to realign the twist in the frame rails, that will translate into door alignment issues a and b pilar problems, windshield position etc, etc, i say we band together with rocks, torches, pitchforks, and clubs in hand and pay the p.o. and the body shop a visit!, :hammer:... sorry,sorry, my sicilian is showing, that really makes me made... :madder:

 

[Bob_Blue_BJ8]

LEERIVAS:

Thanks. Checked the post from eschneider. Since the major cost component of the frame-switch is the labor and other stuff involved in taking the car off the old frame and putting it on the new one, I'd opt for a brand new frame when I can afford it.

Best,
Bob

 

[Bob_Blue_BJ8]

Hi, BUNDYRUM:

Jeesh! Your post was timestamped 3:00AM my time!

I do have the shop manual on CD and printed out the frame specs for the various body shops we tried. Never got that far when they saw the body is welded to the frame.

Thanks for the clarification on the frame rail geometry.

We're investing in a camber/caster tool and can already do alignment checks ourselves rather than making numerous trips to an alignment shop. Does anybody have any recommendations on which tools to buy or avoid? Surprisingly, the car tracks well right now. Goes straight with hands off wheel - maybe due to a ton of caster on the left side!

Hope you finally got some sleep last night or this morning!

 

[GregW]

Have you looked in the back of a workshop manual as I thought there was a quick reference to basic dimensions for checking the frame. I don't have mine with me at present (yes I know it's only 01:06 am and that's no excuse)but I thought there was one there.

The taper that GregW is talking about positions the kingpin through the top and bottom attach points.

The lower A-arm frame points are on an angle to the frame, but I was talking about the actual bottom of the frame. Hard to tell in the drawing you're referring to, but those two lines don't look parallel either. It's a crazy world we live in. :laugh:

 

[Cottontop]

I...received my car with the body panels hung and the chassis painted the color that I'm going to paint the car.

Pat hasn't seen this picture yet, but here are a bunch of us at last Saturday's Tech Session, standing around drinking coffee and eating donuts, watching him add parts to his newly repaired and repainted Jule frame.

Tim

 

[GregW]

As a rule, welding a frame is a no, no. They become brittle and can crack.
Old guy told me that. Considering handling and all the effort, a new frame
might be the way to go.

Well, I never heard welding on a frame was a no no, I don't think NASCAR has either, or most of the auto industry. 'Cept maybe Morgan with their wooden frames. You do have to be careful that the metal doesn't warp from heat, but the heating/ cooling process can actually soften the metal too. Hydrogen embrittlement can occur, but it can be avoided.

I think it is too early to say a new frame is needed. Once all the issues are pinpointed, then an informed decision can be made.