And now the subject we all love... The Hard Start.

[Nunyas]

Well, just when you fix one thing something else without fail will always come to surface or even resurface. Yeah, just when I thought i rigged my bare wires "good", the hard starting problem resurfaced with my 'B. So, this time around I imediately checked the ignition system. The wires look good, a little light corrosion on the terminal that plugs into the coil (I'm getting ready to order a new coil as we speak). Pulled the plugs, 1 & 2 were brown/bronze in color; thought that seemed ok. 3 & 4 were black and sooty; rich on the back 2 apparently. I have a '76 'B with ZS in place and so is the rest of the emissions equipment. 1&2 being leaner looking that 3&4 lead me to checking out the "anti-backfire"/"gulp" valve, and sure enough it's stuck partially open (constantly sucking air even at idle). Fine plug that off for the time being; still have a year to go before I have to test again, but definitely needs replacing. Cleaned up the plugs, reinstalled them, and fiddled with the plug wire connectors to make sure they got good solid connections to the tops of the plugs.

The car doesn't want to start; that is to say, it is extremely difficult to start when cold right now. The last time this happened replacing the ignition wires fixed it. The connection to the coil had some white fluffy corrion on it; I suspected it was left over from the last set of wires where the connectors were completely hidden by it. When I replaced the ignition wire set, I did not replace the coil. I'm thinking I should do that now (rather should have done it when i did the wires originally) incase the corrosion ate away too much of the coil's connector. I think I'm going to get a new resistor while I'm at it. One of the wires going to the resistor is dubious, and I'll have to give it some lovin'.

Once I get the car running, I notice it seems to have a random mis-fire, and each time the engine 'misses' i can hear the distinct sound of an electrical arc somewhere (kind of like hearing the electric starter on modern gas stoves). At first I thought it might be one of the plugs, but as I hover over the plugs listening for the arc it seems to be in the region of 2 and 3, which is directly across from the coil. So the arcing sound may well be the coil.

I know the choke is choking, it's been converted to manual. Before I started working on the car this weekend it never failed to let me start the car on the first try in the morning. And I think I should stick to ignition/electrical problems before I move to messing with the carb...

Is there anything else I should look into other than possible coil problems? The car has been converted to electronic ignition (Crane XR700), with a pointsless distributor. Also, should I replace the coil with another Lucas coil or go with a Crane unit suitable for use with the ignition module?

 

[DrEntropy]

Re: And now the subject we all love... The Hard St

Go with a higher output coil; that Crane iggy unit kicks butt.

but inna mean time: After dark, lift th' bonnet and start it... if there's HV goin' to ground, you'll have a light show as evidence of when/where.

Cold hard start (with NO subsequent normal ~warm~ temp start prob's) usually means lean condition (choke isn't working as well as you think) or other iggy problems not found yet.

darn... this'd be SOOO much easier with the car in front of me /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[Nunyas]

Re: And now the subject we all love... The Hard St

Should I have mentioned that I checked for spark, and found that I was getting spark? It was an orange-red colored spark not the blue/white colored spark that I'm use to seeing... Does that make any difference?

 

[Stewart]

Re: And now the subject we all love... The Hard St

Yeah it does you have girly man spark. You should have a blueish white spark for best results. That would explain why you have a hard time starting cold. I would go ahead and get a better coil and you might want to due a quick ignition tune up. New cap and rotor, wires and I would say a new point and condenser but your cheating.

 

[Nunyas]

Re: And now the subject we all love... The Hard St

hmmm... the local Kragen parts store carries *some* Crane parts. The only coil the girl on the phone could find related to my XR700 ignition was the Crane LX92 (part #730-0892)... I just looked that up on Cranes site. That looks like a beast of a coil... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif Can't remember if she said they had any in stock though.

 

[Mike H]

Re: And now the subject we all love... The Hard St

I have a Crane on my '78.
I also had similar problems that you have.
I first tried to swap distributors with a point system to
see if the Crane was defective. No change. I then replaced the coil, and voila, problem went away.
I put in a standard coil bout over the counter at a local discount auto parts store.
If you know someone in your area perhaps they can let you swap coils for a test. If not, $30 or so for a standard coil is not too much of a loss if it is not the problem.
Just be sure you get a coil that is correct for your car. You would need 12 v, but I am not sure if yours has an internal or external ballast resistor.

 

[Nunyas]

Re: And now the subject we all love... The Hard St

Well, the coil that was on the car used external ballast. The Kragen folks gave me a coil that doesn't require an external ballast resistor. I installed it on the car and by-passed the resistor. The old coil definitely looks foul. I'll take pics tonight when I get back home from work. Hopefully that was the problem, and i won't have troubles tomorrow morning. I also changed the plug wires while I was at it. There is a noteable difference in throttle response now. I can "floor it" from idle and the engine doesn't stumble anymore.

I picked up an "electronic flasher" module while I was at the store to see if I can even out the flasher rates a bit. Ever since I rewired the lines going to my starter the flashers blink wicked fast even though all the lights are working correctly. We'll see how that bit goes.

 

[Dozuki]

Re: And now the subject we all love... The Hard St

I just replaced my ignition system in my 75. I used the MSD, not the crane, but from what I cold tell from my manuals, my system has the internal balast (built into the wire). The MSD doesn't need the balast, so I just bypassed the wire in the loom and ran the ignition direct. I could see that using a balast resistor (external) AND and internal resistor might also cause you some greif if this happens to be the case. Ah, more things to think about =)

 

[Nunyas]

Re: And now the subject we all love... The Hard St

Well, the car started fine after sitting for 6 hours. It was dark when I left for home. So, that gave me a good run to verify that all my lights and idicators are working properly. I must say, after I reinsulated the wires connected to the starter I've never see the lights and signals work so well. The turn signals still flash with the lights on and only pause briefly when I apply the brakes. With lights off though, the signals flash a mile a minute /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif

Anyways, here's the old coil... if you have a weak heart you may want to skip looking at this as it is quite graphic and most certianly not suitable for small children. Ahem... you have been forwarned!

 

[DrEntropy]

Re: And now the subject we all love... The Hard St

RE: Turn signal oscillation rates...

This is off the top of me pointy l'il head but; check the physical grounds at ALL four corners of the car. Remove the ground wire inna trunk from its connection and clean it well. I *think* you've got a ground problem, and it's somewhat easy to undo and retighten the grounds. One of the lamp assemblies is the problem, but checking all keeps you from chasin' yer tail for days IYSWIM. Oh, and remove, clean and reinstall the bulbs too. Sometimes a poor (corroded) contact in the sockets can do this as well. Just enuff current flow for the bulb to get *some* juice, not enuff to call it a "connection" y'see. There should be a multi-wire ground point somewhere under your dash as well. IIRC it is near the wiper motor. Next possible cause is a Lucar connector... much more effort and time to go thru and clean/service all those little beasties. They tend to go brittle and disintegrate (the inner metal bit) due to prolonged heat from resistance caused by corrosion. Take heart; this is a MUCH harder task on fiberglass (Lotus) body shells /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[Nunyas]

Re: And now the subject we all love... The Hard St

Well Stewart, it was definitely the "girlie man" spark that was giving me the "hard start" in the mornings. This morning I went out into the cool wet late summer SoCal morning (it's raining for some reason... I'm tellin' ya'll it's "The Day After Tomorrow" coming to life!) and I got the same nearly instant start that I've grown (over the past 6 months) accustom to having with my 'B. Yesturday, I had to pop the hood to let the sun pre-warm my engine to get it started /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif Ya'll didn't know MG mills could work off solar power did ya! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/lol.gif

Dr. - Are you implying the flasher rates should be nearly rock stable like they are on more modern cars?

I was under the impression that the flasher module in these cars worked off of a bit of heat developed from the resistence in the module to make it switch on and off. So on cold days the module flashes slower than on hot days. Like wise less current flow would equal slower flash rate. As it is now, my flashers while flashing a mile a minute (relative to the slow flash rate of a new car) do so consistantly, unless I'm stuck at a stop light in low idle for a long time or the wipers are running. This morning the wipers seemed to use less power on a wet windshield versus a dry one, as my flashers were relatively unfazed by the wiper activity.

 

[DrEntropy]

Re: And now the subject we all love... The Hard St

I guess we're trying to define "mile a minute" flash rate. The rate onna LBC's is certainly faster than on a newer car. Any B I've owned or serviced had a consistent flash rate regardless of the number of other ancillaries running (as long as the battery and charging system were good), or engine speed. An inappropriate flasher unit will flash too frequently or not at all. If you pull one turn signal bulb (pullin' the Lucar connection apart inna trunk for the left side is easiest, BTW) and the flash rate speeds up even more, then I'd say your "mile a minute" rate is "normal" for *that particular flasher unit* when it's plugged back in... The flasher would determine the rate, depending on load. NAPA ~may~ hand you the appropriate unit for your car, depending on the counter person you draw. IIRC there's a "Tung- Sol" unit correct for your car.

 

[Nunyas]

Re: And now the subject we all love... The Hard St

well... a mile a minute is roughly 1.5 to 2 times faster than the mordern cars next to me at lights...

 

[DrEntropy]

Re: And now the subject we all love... The Hard St

I see... well, IIRC (not having the B electrics finished yet) it has a flash rate (ironically) roughly 1.5~2 times a second... 'bout the speed of the blinking cursor on this screen /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Bit faster than the "modern" iron, I'd say it's "normal." I'll do my best to time mine when it's wired up.

 

[Nunyas]

Re: And now the subject we all love... The Hard St

hmmmm... The problem that lead to the "hard start" seems to be resurfacing... already. Could an incorrect or dieing coil cause the electrical power in the entire car to go out? While the wires I addressed this past weekend needed it, it seems I might have a problem some where else? I installed new connectors at the battery and made sure to insulate them well to prevent shorting in that area.

To recap, rather here's a description of what's happening to me, and this started happening (again) Wednesday morning, 2 days after putting the new coil in:

-While driving: electrical power cuts out completely, charging light won't light (no power), fuel pump not pumping, we're talking total power failure. Roll to the side of the road, sit for a minute or two (sometimes longer, sometimes shorter), and power will come back to the system, fuel pump pumps, charging light lights, hand brake light lights, and the car will start instantly. At other, times I've had the power go out just long enough for the engine to stall, and can restart immediately.

It seems kind of weird that everything seemed to be "ok" on the two coolest days we had this week, but when the weather started warming back up the electrics are acting up with it.

 

[Nunyas]

Re: And now the subject we all love... The Hard St

actually, now that I'm looking at the wiring diagram... the problem looks like it might be more ignition switch, starter relay, or alternator related...

I mean, there's a very few select places in the wiring where all the power can be controlled, right? Are there any other locations that I should consider looking at?

 

[DrEntropy]

Re: And now the subject we all love... The Hard St

First; it ain't vodoo, it's physics. That said, is there a *possiblity* the iggy switch is the culprit? It's the "central source" for the power from battery to the systems you describe as errant. Dealing with a failure of this description would lead to a "source" problem. If the battery connections are clean and new, the fuse connectors, the ground points... Does "shaking/wiggling" the key make any difference when the problem manifests itself?

This is as much an ~intuitive~ conundrum as diagnosing an operating system glitch on a computer. It goes back to that "simpatico" thing... Not easy to suss, almost as etherial as "Use the Force, Luke!" Does the problem appear when you cross a set of railroad tracks for instance? Is it brought on after a certain amount of time (processor fan FUBAR, and overheat caused)?

Sorry to be so obtuse, but there's ALWAYS a cause/effect factor in our LBC's responsible for these failures. It's the task of the "pilot" to recognise those relationships and isolate them. Think back to what you experienced as the "event" occured. Too bad there's no "regedit" available.

Diagnostics for problems in LBC's takes as much patience and experience as diagnosing problems with CPU's. Not nearly as complex but nearly as exasperating. Find the relationship between failure and immediate condition and you have more clues. Again: so sorry this is as etherial as it is, but electrons are ultimately quite predictable in their behavior. Somewhere along the route they've been denied passage. Find the cause/effect relationship and you've likely solved the problem.

 

[Nunyas]

Re: And now the subject we all love... The Hard St

Well, I hopped in my car to drive home tonight at 6PM and less than 100 yards from the office my power went out again. I decided before leaving work that the problem is less likely to be in the areas that I worked on this past weekend. So, I checked the areas that were readily accessible from the driver's seat. I jiggled the key every which way imagineable, and nothing happened. The next most accessible area was the wiring going down the steering column to under the dash. Low and behold as soon as I touched it I got instant feed back. The charge light, parking brake light, and fuel pump all came on. Feeling like I finally found it, I jiggled the wiring again, and the power flickered off and on in time with my jiggles. Then I pulled the harness one way, power out; pushed it the other, power on. I then felt around for the connectors; pushed and tugged on one, and nothing; pushed and tugged on the other power went on and off in time with my actions. So, I made the power come on and sort of wedged the connector into a position where it would stay on for the trip home.

I don't have a garage, and it's dark already. So, I'll have to get in there and clean the connectors tomorrow evening or on Saturday, but I'm glad I finally found the trouble area. I was so happy that I found it that when I got home, I fiddled with it a little more to make sure it was in a position where it would not move, and went on a spirited drive to make sure the power will stay on while driving. Which I'm glad to say it did, but I'll definitely have to get in there and clean those connectors this weekend.

 

[DrEntropy]

Re: And now the subject we all love... The Hard St

PA-dum-BUMP! Glad you could isolate it "without leaving the comfort of your chair"! Supply TO the iggy switch? Lucar connector metal sleeve broken?

Curious at this point /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[Nunyas]

Re: And now the subject we all love... The Hard St

I haven't crawled under the dash yet. It was too dark when I got home, and I didn't wanna lay on the floor board with a flash light in my mouth trying to figure it out. I just got the power to come on and then wedged the wires into a position that they wouldn't move. If there's still day light when I get home tonight I'll have a peek. If not, it'll be tomorrow before I figure it out. I'm leaning towards the connectors right now though. They're not air or water tight so there's a good chance that there's some corrosion on them.