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ld not place much value on the accuracey of the amp gauge although most are fairly close.
The ammeter is only a monitoring device and has no control.
So if your gen. fries,or your battery boils or goes dead,its not the ammeter,look at the mechanical regulator.
A good shop will set it up on the bench with proper test equipment,no guessing after install,but I am going with electronic reg.in a alternator.
Have fun
The ammeter is only a monitoring device and has no control.
So if your gen. fries,or your battery boils or goes dead,its not the ammeter,look at the mechanical regulator.
A good shop will set it up on the bench with proper test equipment,no guessing after install,but I am going with electronic reg.in a alternator.
Have fun
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I called the shop to ask them to tell me what they used to check my car yesterday. They said that they used a voltage meter. As we revved the car, it read 13.2 on the voltage meter, which they said was right. With this test, they determined that it was charging fine and that the problem may well be in the ammeter.
I may have overstated the situation a bit earlier. When the engine hit 2000 rpm and above, the ammeter needle rose close to 30+ but did not reach 30+, and when I slowed down or stopped, it returned to the half-way point or "0". Then, when I switched on the overdrive, it did not approach 30+ (overdrive = fewer revolutions so it stands to reason that the generator wouldn't or might not give a higher charge).
I may have overstated the situation a bit earlier. When the engine hit 2000 rpm and above, the ammeter needle rose close to 30+ but did not reach 30+, and when I slowed down or stopped, it returned to the half-way point or "0". Then, when I switched on the overdrive, it did not approach 30+ (overdrive = fewer revolutions so it stands to reason that the generator wouldn't or might not give a higher charge).
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Nobody has mentioned this yet, but I will throw it out there. You mentioned that turning the OD on and off had an effect on the Ammeter. When the Overdrive solonoid on my TR4 was in the process of shorting itself out, I witnessed some strange ammeter readings as well... Just a thought.
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George,
I tend to agree with you. What do you think is lying in wait?
As for the overdrive effect, let me recap:
1. Without OD, the ammeter needle rose to near 30+ when I accelerated and at 45-50 mph (about 2000 rpm +). As long as I remained at that speed, the ammeter remained in that area (it dances a bit).
2. Switching on the OD, the ammeter needle fell to midpoint between "0" and 30+ and remained there, pretty steady, until I stopped.
3. When I switched off the OD. the ammeter needle continued at the midpoint or even close to "0" when I drove at 45-50 mph (about 2000 rpm +).
It's as if the OD corrected the ammeter (although I know that this is really not possible).
The overdrive has just been installed and all the components are new or rebuilt. (No guarantee, I know, but just to give all the facts in this strange case.)
Here's what I would like to ask of all you experienced guys: What should I be on the lookout for (other than bad grammar ending a sentence with a preposition)? What would be the signs of trouble, and what would they indicate?
I tend to agree with you. What do you think is lying in wait?
As for the overdrive effect, let me recap:
1. Without OD, the ammeter needle rose to near 30+ when I accelerated and at 45-50 mph (about 2000 rpm +). As long as I remained at that speed, the ammeter remained in that area (it dances a bit).
2. Switching on the OD, the ammeter needle fell to midpoint between "0" and 30+ and remained there, pretty steady, until I stopped.
3. When I switched off the OD. the ammeter needle continued at the midpoint or even close to "0" when I drove at 45-50 mph (about 2000 rpm +).
It's as if the OD corrected the ammeter (although I know that this is really not possible).
The overdrive has just been installed and all the components are new or rebuilt. (No guarantee, I know, but just to give all the facts in this strange case.)
Here's what I would like to ask of all you experienced guys: What should I be on the lookout for (other than bad grammar ending a sentence with a preposition)? What would be the signs of trouble, and what would they indicate?
TR3driver
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Exactly as I suspected. The problem is that 30 amps into a moderately discharged battery may only take the voltage to 13.2; as I said before the battery is not being overcharged but the generator IS overloaded. This is why Lucas specifically says to check the voltage setting with the battery temporarily disconnected from the generator.LexTR3 said:
I learned about this the hard way, many years ago, from trying to set the regulator just by checking battery voltage. After burning up more generators than I care to count, I finally realized that the stock unit is simply inadequate for the type of driving I was doing at the time (strictly short trips, with headlights, heater and usually wipers running) and was incapable of keeping the battery charged (let alone overcharged) under those conditions.
That was the main reason I converted to a 60 amp alternator (still with external mechanical regulator), which was a vast improvement for me. (Now I live where it's mostly sunny and I drive 30-40 minutes each way to work, so I get along much better with the stock generator on my 'project' TR3.)
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:]I may have overstated the situation a bit earlier. When the engine hit 2000 rpm and above, the ammeter needle rose close to 30+ but did not reach 30+,[/QUOTE]Well, there isn't a lot of room between 20 and 30, but you should be able to see the difference. There is a mark at +15 and a mark at +30; +20 is 1/3 of the way from +15 to +30.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:] and when I slowed down or stopped, it returned to the half-way point or "0".[/QUOTE]This is normal. The generator puts out little or nothing at idle rpm.<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:] Then, when I switched on the overdrive, it did not approach 30+ (overdrive = fewer revolutions so it stands to reason that the generator wouldn't or might not give a higher charge).[/QUOTE]I guess that would make sense, if you were driving say 40 mph in 4th gear (2000/1600 rpm).
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Randall,
Great information. I will digest it and share it with my mechanic and see what he decides to do.
Turns out another Triumph entered his shop today with the SAME AMP PROBLEM. (Like my car, this car has a new generator and a new regulator).
But I am left with a MYSTERY. You say that "Now I live where it's mostly sunny and I drive 30-40 minutes each way to work, so I get along much better with the stock generator on my 'project' TR3." I, too, live where its sunny (blazing hot, these days!) and I drive the car about once a week. On those occasions I'll drive perhaps 50 or 60 miles. I don't drive it for routine travel. I don't drive it at night, so I don't use the lights. I don't drive it in the rain, so I don't use the wipers. And, naturally, I don't use the heater. Seems to me that I should be having the same results you are having. What do you think?
Also, what is your opinion of switching to a solid state voltage regulator?
BTW. My ammeter has four marks on it: 30-, a hash mark, 0, a hash mark, and 30+. If the second hash mark is +15, then my ammeter needle has been pointing at +20. Is that good or bad?
As for the OD effect, my mechanic says: The difference when you're in or out of overdrive is RPM and when you kick in the solenoid it puts a load on the system. The overdrive is held on by a solenoid that draws current (amps). The extra load may make the regulator or the amp meter work correctly. Try turning your lights while driving over 2000 to see if it does the same thing."
Oh, and another thing. When the mechanics were testing the system, they checked to see when the cut-out points were closing in the regulator. They closed at 13.2 volts. They said that reading is right on the money.
Great information. I will digest it and share it with my mechanic and see what he decides to do.
Turns out another Triumph entered his shop today with the SAME AMP PROBLEM. (Like my car, this car has a new generator and a new regulator).
But I am left with a MYSTERY. You say that "Now I live where it's mostly sunny and I drive 30-40 minutes each way to work, so I get along much better with the stock generator on my 'project' TR3." I, too, live where its sunny (blazing hot, these days!) and I drive the car about once a week. On those occasions I'll drive perhaps 50 or 60 miles. I don't drive it for routine travel. I don't drive it at night, so I don't use the lights. I don't drive it in the rain, so I don't use the wipers. And, naturally, I don't use the heater. Seems to me that I should be having the same results you are having. What do you think?
Also, what is your opinion of switching to a solid state voltage regulator?
BTW. My ammeter has four marks on it: 30-, a hash mark, 0, a hash mark, and 30+. If the second hash mark is +15, then my ammeter needle has been pointing at +20. Is that good or bad?
As for the OD effect, my mechanic says: The difference when you're in or out of overdrive is RPM and when you kick in the solenoid it puts a load on the system. The overdrive is held on by a solenoid that draws current (amps). The extra load may make the regulator or the amp meter work correctly. Try turning your lights while driving over 2000 to see if it does the same thing."
Oh, and another thing. When the mechanics were testing the system, they checked to see when the cut-out points were closing in the regulator. They closed at 13.2 volts. They said that reading is right on the money.
TR3driver
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Given those driving conditions and no extra loads, I think the stock setup should be entirely adequate.LexTR3 said:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:]Also, what is your opinion of switching to a solid state voltage regulator? [/QUOTE]It could be a small improvement IMO; I have considered doing it myself (mostly because designing and building such a regulator sounds like an interesting project). But it doesn't really address the basic limitations of the generator (no output at idle, 20 amps max). And my experience has been that with a modicum of maintenance, the original control box can be very reliable.
My project TR3 is still wearing what I believe to be the original box and maybe even the original generator; all I have done is to clean the contact points thoroughly (with a proper burnishing tool) and adjust the regulator point gap & tension. It's still doing well enough for my needs (I drive the car to work every day), even though I have upgraded the lights slightly (H4 headlamps, 2157 tail lamps) and converted to an electric radiator fan.
Most likely, if I do anything at all, it will be to once again convert to an alternator with higher output. I kind of miss having my audio books, and it takes a lot of power to be heard over the wind noise, etc.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:]BTW. My ammeter has four marks on it: 30-, a hash mark, 0, a hash mark, and 30+. If the second hash mark is +15, then my ammeter needle has been pointing at +20. Is that good or bad?[/QUOTE]+20 is perfect, since the shop said the voltage is not going too high. Hopefully that will eventually taper off, when the battery becomes fully charged. But if it is significantly discharged at the moment, it may take several hours of sustained high speed (2000+ rpm) driving to fully recharge it.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:]As for the OD effect, my mechanic says: The difference when you're in or out of overdrive is RPM and when you kick in the solenoid it puts a load on the system. The overdrive is held on by a solenoid that draws current (amps).[/QUOTE]That is true, but once engaged, the A-type OD solenoid only draws about 1 amp, not really enough to show on the ammeter. Plus, the factory wired the solenoid to the battery side of the ammeter, meaning it's current does not show up directly (except perhaps as a very slight extra charge if the battery were fully charged).
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:] The extra load may make the regulator or the amp meter work correctly.[/QUOTE]That's an interesting statement! It seems to imply that they think the regulator may NOT be working correctly with the OD off!
:laugh:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:] Try turning your lights while driving over 2000 to see if it does the same thing."[/QUOTE]Turning the headlights on will reduce the current shown on the ammeter, just because part of the generator output (10-15 amps) is now going to the lights instead of the battery.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:]Oh, and another thing. When the mechanics were testing the system, they checked to see when the cut-out points were closing in the regulator. They closed at 13.2 volts. They said that reading is right on the money. [/QUOTE]The specified range is 12.7 to 13.3 so it is within range. I tend to shoot for the middle, but I certainly wouldn't bother taking it back for that.
Given that's actually reading +20 instead of +30, I think you are fine. If you don't start seeing the current come down after a few hours at 2000+ rpm, then it might be time to revisit the voltage and/or battery. Constant charging over a long period without the voltage coming up may be a sign that the battery has a bad cell.
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Randall,
A million thanks for you careful analysis of my situation and your information. It sounds like I may not have a great deal to worry about at the moment, but I'll keep my eyes open for any signs of malfunctions.
The battery seems to be performing well, but, as you suggest, perhaps I should take a three or four hour road trip and see how things develop. So far, my longest trips have been 50-60 minutes.
Out of ignorance, I may have been reading my ammeter wrong, thinking that the hashmark between "0" and 30+ was 20, whereas it apparently is only 15. So my needle has been indicating 20 when the car hits 2000 rpm or above (or until I've driven some distance or switch to OD).
I, too, question my mechanic's opinion of my voltage regulator. Although it is the third new one he has put on my car within a couple of months, I know that he has very little confidence in the regulators currently available from Moss, etc.
There is a fellow at MGAguru.com who will convert a Lucas regulator into a solid-state regulator for $80 plus $5 for shipping. The attractive thing about this is that the regulator will look "original" in the car. I don't know if I will go this route, but I am tempted.
The battery in the car came with the car. I have replaced almost everything else in the car, so this winter I will replace the battery.
A million thanks for you careful analysis of my situation and your information. It sounds like I may not have a great deal to worry about at the moment, but I'll keep my eyes open for any signs of malfunctions.
The battery seems to be performing well, but, as you suggest, perhaps I should take a three or four hour road trip and see how things develop. So far, my longest trips have been 50-60 minutes.
Out of ignorance, I may have been reading my ammeter wrong, thinking that the hashmark between "0" and 30+ was 20, whereas it apparently is only 15. So my needle has been indicating 20 when the car hits 2000 rpm or above (or until I've driven some distance or switch to OD).
I, too, question my mechanic's opinion of my voltage regulator. Although it is the third new one he has put on my car within a couple of months, I know that he has very little confidence in the regulators currently available from Moss, etc.
There is a fellow at MGAguru.com who will convert a Lucas regulator into a solid-state regulator for $80 plus $5 for shipping. The attractive thing about this is that the regulator will look "original" in the car. I don't know if I will go this route, but I am tempted.
The battery in the car came with the car. I have replaced almost everything else in the car, so this winter I will replace the battery.
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Well... after looking at this problem from every angle, I went back to the battery... and guess what: That may have been the source of the problem.
I looked carefully at the battery and discovered that someone recently had tightened the positive cable to the batter so tight that the connector had broken in half. I appeared to be on the pole, but I was able to lift it off with no trouble.
I purchased a new cable and installed it.
Two minutes after I started out on a test drive, the ammeter needle settled down to dancing between "0" and 15, but mostly around "0." I drove about 75 miles and it functioned properly all the way.
I'm not sure this loose cable was the entire cause of the problem, but it seems to be working now.
Note to the wary: When I was doing some work on the car today I used a scissors jack in taking off and replacing the wheels. With a slight bump of the car, the scissors jack failed and toppled over and the car came down -- slowly, thank goodness -- on top of the jack. No harm done except a nice dent in my new stainless steel muffler. That scissors jack is history, and I have gone back to the pump kind (although the problem with them is that they tend to move with the car and can slip off the frame while jacking). And... of course .... I was nowhere near to being under the car without jack stands and 4x4 wooden blocks as safety backup.
I looked carefully at the battery and discovered that someone recently had tightened the positive cable to the batter so tight that the connector had broken in half. I appeared to be on the pole, but I was able to lift it off with no trouble.
I purchased a new cable and installed it.
Two minutes after I started out on a test drive, the ammeter needle settled down to dancing between "0" and 15, but mostly around "0." I drove about 75 miles and it functioned properly all the way.
I'm not sure this loose cable was the entire cause of the problem, but it seems to be working now.
Note to the wary: When I was doing some work on the car today I used a scissors jack in taking off and replacing the wheels. With a slight bump of the car, the scissors jack failed and toppled over and the car came down -- slowly, thank goodness -- on top of the jack. No harm done except a nice dent in my new stainless steel muffler. That scissors jack is history, and I have gone back to the pump kind (although the problem with them is that they tend to move with the car and can slip off the frame while jacking). And... of course .... I was nowhere near to being under the car without jack stands and 4x4 wooden blocks as safety backup.
TR3driver
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Good deal!
Don't mean to sound alarmist, but if the needle is still jumping around at higher rpm, then IMO you still have a minor problem somewhere. While it can jump around under some circumstances (mostly when full generator output is just slightly more than needed), just driving down the road shouldn't be one of them. Might be worth checking out the other battery cable, especially where it mates to the body (paint does NOT conduct, you need metal-to-metal) and the ground wire for the control box.
Yeah, scissors jacks are treacherous. I actually prefer the original TR3 jack, when my big floor jack is not available.
Don't mean to sound alarmist, but if the needle is still jumping around at higher rpm, then IMO you still have a minor problem somewhere. While it can jump around under some circumstances (mostly when full generator output is just slightly more than needed), just driving down the road shouldn't be one of them. Might be worth checking out the other battery cable, especially where it mates to the body (paint does NOT conduct, you need metal-to-metal) and the ground wire for the control box.
Yeah, scissors jacks are treacherous. I actually prefer the original TR3 jack, when my big floor jack is not available.
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Randall,
Thanks for the guidance. I will check the other battery cable, and I intend to install a new battery.
I'm really upset about how quickly the scissors jack failed. As you know, they are narrow and tall. This one had a narrow and not very substantial base. So when it started to go over the base quickly bent and down it went. I have two floor jacks -- not big heavy ones -- but as they swing up, they move the car a bit and they move also, sometimes sliding off the frame. This takes special watching and care.
I said that I dented my muffler. Actually, I dented the resonator. I'll look into whether Moss sells stainless steel resonators separately from their stainless steel systems.
Thanks for the guidance. I will check the other battery cable, and I intend to install a new battery.
I'm really upset about how quickly the scissors jack failed. As you know, they are narrow and tall. This one had a narrow and not very substantial base. So when it started to go over the base quickly bent and down it went. I have two floor jacks -- not big heavy ones -- but as they swing up, they move the car a bit and they move also, sometimes sliding off the frame. This takes special watching and care.
I said that I dented my muffler. Actually, I dented the resonator. I'll look into whether Moss sells stainless steel resonators separately from their stainless steel systems.
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Randall,
Once again you are right about what might be wrong with the ammeter reading. I checked the negative ground on the battery and found that it was poor: paint and rust prevented a good contact. And when I checked the voltage regulator ground, it was even worse: paint and rust, pretty thick. I also took the battery in to the auto store (I had been told it was a "new" battery). The folks at the battery store found the date on the battery -- it was ten years old!
So, I am now cleaning up all this mess. The contacts are clean, I have touched them up with some dielectric grease to prevent corrosion, and have reattached the cables. When I get it all together I'll test drive and expect that I will see much improvement. Now, at least, it's all "metal to metal."
My only possible mistake is that I transferred the LUCAS label from the old battery to the new. A friend has told me that I have transferred "the curse."
Now all I have to concern myself about is a loud click that I hear when I depress the clutch peddle. It started yesterday just after I solved the ammeter mystery. Always something!
Many thanks.
Once again you are right about what might be wrong with the ammeter reading. I checked the negative ground on the battery and found that it was poor: paint and rust prevented a good contact. And when I checked the voltage regulator ground, it was even worse: paint and rust, pretty thick. I also took the battery in to the auto store (I had been told it was a "new" battery). The folks at the battery store found the date on the battery -- it was ten years old!
So, I am now cleaning up all this mess. The contacts are clean, I have touched them up with some dielectric grease to prevent corrosion, and have reattached the cables. When I get it all together I'll test drive and expect that I will see much improvement. Now, at least, it's all "metal to metal."
My only possible mistake is that I transferred the LUCAS label from the old battery to the new. A friend has told me that I have transferred "the curse."
Now all I have to concern myself about is a loud click that I hear when I depress the clutch peddle. It started yesterday just after I solved the ammeter mystery. Always something!
Many thanks.