Am I crazy - are shop rates this bad?

[TR4nut]

Would love to get calibrated by this forum on car repair shop rates. This past week I took my sons 2000 Ford Ranger into the shop after hearing a clunk in the front end when he turns. I thought one of the wheels was a little loose and maybe needed a bearing repack/replacement.

Got the shop estimate - $2000 which included a laundry list of things including new tires. I whittled it down to a bill which still landed north of $500, which was a front end brake job/bearing repack/new sway bar bushings.

I'm still in shock in that I look at what was done and can't come close to those costs. Am I stuck in the 60s? One case in point was the shops $500 estimate to replace the shocks (which I didn't do). They wanted $300 parts/$200 labor. I priced shocks on the web and it looks like it would run maybe $100-$150 for a set. I'm guessing maybe 30-60 minutes tops to replace them (normal shocks, not struts). FOr what the shop did do, I noticed they replaced the rotors with new instead of just leaving them alone or turning. That added $150 to the job.

This isn't so much a vent as a reality check - does this sound reasonable? I'm in a large bedroom community around Houston and this place does a ton of work. I'm wondering if places like this exist just becaue no one knows how to work on cars anymore. If this is the real world I realize I better never plan on having my TRs worked on by anyone but me!

 

[Gliderman8]

Your not alone... my wife's car needed rear struts a few weeks ago. The local national service chain wanted $480 parts and labor. With shipping the struts cost me $110. It took me about 30 - 40 mins a side.
On the other hand, they do incur the cost of doing business which I don't have in my garage at home... but still?

 

[GregW]

One case in point was the shops $500 estimate to replace the shocks (which I didn't do). They wanted $300 parts/$200 labor.

I have a '99 Ranger 2WD. Shock replacement couldn't be easier. You don't even need to jack the truck up. I have KYB shocks installed after several bad experiences with various Monroes.

I noticed they replaced the rotors with new instead of just leaving them alone or turning. That added $150 to the job.

Buying new rotors with the bearings pre-installed is not much more money than rotors without bearings. It makes the swap much easier.

This isn't so much a vent as a reality check - does this sound reasonable?

No, that's why I do my own work mostly. I think replacing the entire front end cost me less than $500. Included were ball joints, upper control arms, lower A-arm bushings, tie rods, swaybar bushings and brakes.

 

[TR4nut]

I have a '99 Ranger 2WD. Shock replacement couldn't be easier. You don't even need to jack the truck up. I have KYB shocks installed after several bad experiences with various Monroes.

This is a 2000 2WD - I had glanced at them and thought that was the case - dead simple. And thanks for the tip on KYBs, I saw pretty decent prices during my search I may do a web order.

No, that's why I do my own work mostly. I think replacing the entire front end cost me less than $500. Included were ball joints, upper control arms, lower A-arm bushings, tie rods, swaybar bushings and brakes.

I try to keep my wrenching down to the hobby cars but this has definitely twisted me a little. Especially on the Ranger because a lot of the work is just the same old fashioned stuff I've done for years. I think it is time to get my son in there too since it is his truck (kindof) and show him that he can save about $400 on a simple shock job if he does it himself - maybe that will get him interested in cars.

 

[martx-5]

I used to do all of my own work, as a matter of fact, I used to swing wrenches for a living. But, I just don't want to do any of the bull work anymore, so I farm it out. Up here the going labor rate is just shy of $100/hour. The parts cost is also more expensive, because they have to make money on that also. Fortunately, my guy will work with me by allowing me to supply the parts. I let him hit me a little more for the labor, and he doesn't have to warranty the part. So far that has worked for me. I also try to do all of the diagnosing myself. If I truly know what's wrong, I just go in and say replace this or that. This keeps the creative diagnostics out of the picture, and I don't spend on anything "just because they were in there we might as well replace everything in sight".

 

[Banjo]

I don't know the details, so it's hard to tell what really is going on, but by your version it sounds like they saw you coming. Was the $200 just labor to replace 2 shocks? Even at $100 an hour labor that's two hours. Even here in the rust belt we don't get an hour apiece to replace shocks.
I don't really want to make further remarks not knowing the whole story.
our rate here in the sticks of upstate NY is generally between 75-85 an hour at the local shops. it goes up a lot nearer to the cities. much closer to $100 or 110.

 

[DrEntropy]

Well said, Benny. Had PLENTY of salty, dirty ice fall down me neck in the past, too, BTW. :wink:

We were at $85/hr when we shut the shop down, we were likely too low for the specialty work we did, but the various local dealer rates were at or over $100/hr then. That was a few years ago.

We never tried to "build a ticket" but due to the age and condition of most things over a decade old, we DID charge time & materials. Broken studs, rusted/corroded stuff was billed at what it took to DO the job, not a "book" time. But we DID "give away" a LOT of the hours on many jobs. Used book times as a guide, not Gospel.

...and never DID find a "book" for a DB2/4 DHC. :wink:

I'll do all my own wrenching 'til I'm incapable of it.

Even on Diesela... and I HATE gettin' dirty. :smirk:

 

[RonMacPherson]

Welcome to the world of making money by working on cars...

Not fixing cars to earn a living... Big Difference...

Over the last couple of decades, chain stores, then dealerships all got the "improve bottom line folks" to visit their stores... The big deal now, is UPSELL.. Not does this car need it and how can we fix the customers car for the best value.. But HOW MUCH MONEY can we separate from the customer...

Find yourself an independent old timey that has a good reliable(customers who come back repeatedly, because they WANT to)customer base...

Even the CSI has been replaced by some franchises for BOTTOM LINE Increase....

 

[DrEntropy]

But HOW MUCH MONEY can we separate from the customer...

First thing done: "Wallet biopsy"!!

 

[TR4nut]

Thanks for the comments-

I really am not trying to grind this shop into the dirt, nor even the practice of making a profit, but I needed a reality check - I thought this was ridiculous but its just my perception of acceptable profit. This shop is not unique from what I've seen. But charging retail X 3 for parts, and shop times probably x 2 what it should be is just killing me. I'd happily pay an independent very good money just as long as I could talk straight with them and figure out the best thing to do on the car. Maybe its just in the city areas where folks just don't know any better so its become acceptable.

 

[anthony7777]

doc, i agree with much thats been said, but it depends mostly upon where one lives, and the type of car, i recently mentioned my doing a front disk brake job on a mercedes, i charged the guy $325.00 and he paid for the parts around $115.00, total $440.00, id been quoted up to $1100.00 from several shops in ct, one that knew this car and its owner, however i dont have to pay the bills for a large buildings mtg., staff, health ins., electric, heat, taxes, fumbles, damage, book keepers, errors, lawyers, etc, etc, here within we find the discrepancy, i know i really didnt need to explain that to you!

 

[DrEntropy]

Randy! Go make friends with real techs in an independent shop.

Drive th' TR-4. :wink:

 

[jessebogan]

The other variable is parts QUALITY. I try to supply OE parts for repairs on my customers cars. In the case of older cars this can be tougher. Still, I search out genuine LUCAS parts. Lockheed or Girling brake parts, and so on. There are always cheaper alternatives, but cheaper is not always better. I am building a 3.8 engine for a Mark 2 jag. I found a set of genuine, in the box hepolite pistons, with pins and rings. In this case, they were cheaper than the currenty available alternative. A lot of parts for "modern" cars are coming from China. The box may say Germany" or EU, but the part says China BTW, I have had this happen with Genuine Jaguar, bought from the dealer parts. Box said made to Jaguar spec. in England, but the part itself said "made in China". I sent Jag an email pointing out that my customers did not buy their cars for the made in China driving experience. Especially at the made in England price.

I carry 1.5 million in "Garagekeepers Liability" insurance here. My rent, just outside DC probably doubles most morgages, and I have a smaller cheap for the area place. My snap on bill runs 6500 per year. (Yow!! I did not want to know that right this moment) Most of that is shop equipment to sort of keep up on newish cars. It all adds up. My prices here are competitive for the area. Like the good Doc, nothing immoral going on here, but reversing 45 years of aging isn't quick or easy, so therefore not cheap either. (Old Shop Saying. We do three kinds of work here, Good. Fast. and Cheap. Thing is, the customer only gets to pick 2. Good and fast... won't be cheap Cheap and Fast... won't be good...)

It is kinda weird though. I have done this since I was a kid, and now I look around, and -gasp- I am no spring chicken any more. A lot of younger techs out there have no earthly idea how to rebuild or tune a carbutetor, or how to diagnose and _gasp again!!_ rebuild a starter or wiper motor... I had an older gent come in a while back with a fuel pump for an MGA in his hands. I cleaned the one way valves, and adjusted the points for him in about 10 minutes while he was still explaining the problem. I thought he was gonna fall over when I charged him 10 bucks. He was prepared for much worse. I made him buy me lunch. Seemed like a fair trade to me.

Anyway. sorry for rambling here, I guess my point is that cost is relative. The price is only part of the equation. And like Doc saz, Make friends with an independant shop. It will pay off sooner or later.

 

[Banjo]

I'm a tec in a Toyota dealer (For you guys who don't already know) and within our shop, the guys range across the board of what we're discussing here. Personally, I will not sell/ repair something that does not need to be fixed, unless it's scheduled maintenance as recommended by the manufacturer. In which case, according to the factory, that needs to be fixed. Otherwise, I tend to "warn" folks about an upcoming repair that some of my coworkers would try to sell that day.
"Mr Jones, your front brake pads have about 2mm left. considering that they were 9mm new, and you've made it 60k miles on the 7mm you've used, I just wanted to let you know that within the next few visits to us, you'll likely be needing brakes. "
Not, "Your brakes are very low, you need them done today!!!!"
I guess I'm just old school, but I've found that if you hose someone the first time they come, you'll make a huge profit once. If you take good care of them, you'll make good profit for years to come.
Note on rotors. Measure a new rotor the next time you get one, and compare it to it"s "minimum spec". you'll see that most rotors barely have enough to be machined these days. Usually, anymore, they are "one time use". I'd rather machine them. I make more in labor that way, but I also don't want that customer to come back in a week with warped rotors because I cut them too thin. So usually, its a new set of rotors....
Now... About this ongoing disapproval of "kids" that don't know how to rebuild things.... You guys need to realize that the manufacturers don't build things to be rebuilt anymore. parts are changed as units. It's not the kids fault that they don't know this stuff. they're pretty much not allowed to do it anymore. they get taught/learn what they need to know to do their daily jobs. The average "kid" working as a tec today has probably never worked on a car with a "generator" a carburetor or points. Heck! a Distributor (even electronic) is a rarity anymore. So why should they know it? they don't need it. what they do know is how to diagnose complex computer controlled circuits, fuel injectors, ABS systems, evap emissions systems, airbags, Vehicle skid control, Tire pressure monitors, Air fuel ratio sensors, CAN/BEAN communications.... how many of you guys, who can tune a carburetor in your sleep, can do that stuff? We know what we need to know to do what we need to do. I don't mean this as a slam to anyone, I just want to give the other side of the coin for once. Thanks for humoring me.
I'll shut up now.

 

[TR6BILL]

Perhaps I am old school (not perhaps, I <span style="font-weight: bold">am</span> old school, 40 years in the trade), but I always do consultations for free. No charge, even if it requires x-rays, etc. That is how I develop a customer base (er, patient base. Heck, they are all customers....)

My local Chevy dealership couldn't diagnose the poor running of my old S10 pickup. $385.00 later, I got a new fuel filter (the kind that rests on the frame, not in the tank.). It still ran like crap. I took it to an independent mechanic who fixed it for $140.00 total. Needed a new distributor. I went back to the Chevy shop and demanded, and got, all my money back! Sans the cost of a $14 fuel filter.

 

[DrEntropy]

how many of you guys, who can tune a carburetor in your sleep, can do that stuff? We know what we need to know to do what we need to do. I don't mean this as a slam to anyone, I just want to give the other side of the coin for once. Thanks for humoring me.

May I raise my hand? Most of what you referenced IS part of my repertoire. CIS, EFI, TBI etc, the various diagnostic 'computers' and warez. Certainly Jesse's too. The last five years' "developments" are admittedly outside my experience but certainly not beyond my comprehension.

I understand the "other side of the coin" as well, but taking Bill's S-10 story into account it seems those sides are both still part of the same coin... i.e. the Chevy shop tech who didn't/couldn't diagnose a bad dizzy. "Throw money at it" diagnostics ain't RIGHT. Learning by: "[We know] what we need to know to do what we need to do" is a bit limiting. This is NOT criticism of you, Ben! Knowing you, it just ain't in your nature. Too inquisitive. Just the observation that tech schools, ASE cert programs and niche dealer training are not necessarily turning folks into Master Techs. "Parts replacers" are all too prevalent. And for the monies the dealerships request it should be different, IMO.

If in a professional trade, learn everything there IS to learn, not just what's needed to get by. I take scant pride in having gone thru a battery of "certification" testing so a dealership can put the papers in a frame on a waiting room wall. BTDT. I take GREAT pride in having the skills necessary to truly FIX things. Mebbe that's just me, tho.


Again I say: Do some homework, find the independent shops with good reputation, MEET the people who are to do the work... be evaluative. Money ain't free. :wink:

 

[TR4nut]

Whew, I think I hit a couple of nerves here with my thread, and for that I apologize. Ben's comments about the new technology are actually why I don't like messing with any of my non-hobby cars, I just don't have the skillset - for that work I take our newer cars to the dealerships and have had zero issues.

My dealings with this particular car shop are my own fault, I actually used the place a couple of years ago for the same truck and I was not pleased with the size of the final bill then either but I've been too lazy to hunt down a better place.

The place I went to is a franchise, not sure if it is just local to Houston, Texas, or beyond. Their company mission statement, and in fact their name, has a religious tie - and without going down a verboten rabbit hole discussion on religion I personally have a problem with that. Fortunately, they sent me a feedback email last night on their service so I let them know in a non-swearing but very direct way exactly what I thought of their business model. And now I'm on the hunt for another shop!

p.s. Forgot to add - Just ordered some higher end KYB Gas A Just shocks all around for the truck from Amazon - best price I could find, free shipping, and my son has been warned he is about to turn a wrench when they show up.

 

[vagt6]

Doc's advise is correct. You gotta take time to know where the best shops are.

I think an excellent resource is your local/regional LBC club. Triumph/MG/Healey whatever club members KNOW for sure who the best (e.g., honest, dependable and yes, maybe expensive) repair shops and machine shops are.

I think it's important to buy into the local LBC community. Join your local club; pay your dues, support the marque. Sometimes, you can get stuff really cheap from some of your fellow club members. Heck, we've got folks who are known to fix problems FREE of charge, just for the joy of helping.

What Doc said. It pays to do your homework.

 

[GregW]

Best mechanic I know is Billy Stabile. He was installing a clutch and swapping a tranny I bought for an RX7 I had. He said "Greg, I'd like to see you get a new car, cuz this one is on the way to some expensive problems." I took his advice and never really had the need to go back to him. Sad in a way, but he was unafraid of loosing business by giving the right advise. BTW, the tranny I bought was a newer version and had different mounting tabs than my year. Instead of telling me I had the wrong part, he fabbed up new mounts to make it work. That's thinking outside the box.

 

[Banjo]

Sorry to have come across tense. this thread hits home right now. Our shop is divided . on one team of younger guys we have parts changers and bill padders. On the other, older team, we have worked many years to avoid our dealer being this way, and to be the problem solvers. (We even had regional reps sending problem cars to us to be fixed right) now we're watching our reputation slither down the drain till we're just like any other overpriced dealer. I guess one side of me wants to rationalize and defend any coworker of mine, but deep down I'm like the Doc. Tons of fancy signed documents to hang up, but my pride is that I'll fix whatever comes through that door. whether it be a Model T or a Prius.
My biggest beef is that the management is aware of the situation, but has chosen to not take any action. I met my limit once (sadly when things were a lot better) and found new digs, but that didn't work out, and I broke the "never look back" rule. I can't say I'm stuck, but now is not the right time to make a move. SO I'm dealing with it on a daily basis.
There is one good guy on the other team, but as of Monday he's on our team. He sees what's up, and is fed up too. so he managed to get switched over. I think he sees the same storm as we see coming.