A Bugeye tale .....

[JPSmit]

I have to say that I find this idea of affixing the number from one car to another troubling. I know it has been done many times, and will continue to be done, but it can't be right on a number of levels. Sorry to get Existential, but in my view the car is the car (it is the thing that exists, or not if it has been destroyed), and the number is just the label that authenticates it and places it in some kind of context, including production sequence and the date it came into existence. You can easily dismiss that idea as just a lot of hot air, but I'm certain that if you pass off, say, a 1960 Bugeye as an early production 1958 and you are found out, you'll be in a heap of trouble. Not super smart, either, as early production cars are different than later ones.

My sense is that this is one time where the answer really is "it depends." Sadly there are too many instances of cars stolen, insurance scams, rebuilding scams, changing the spec scams that laws are necessary. While I completely and fully in agreement with the laws, I think there is a massive difference between those various scams and someone who just wants their own old car back on the road legally. In that case, it doesn't seem like such a big deal, but, lets be honest, even there someone will try to beat the system.

one observation I would make is that this is one of those conversations that significant aspects of should probably not be commited to a public forum. I appreciate the intent is to retrieve the original VIN and am not referring to that but, certainly the offer from the guy on the other forum....

 

[lewmac]

So, no one has actually answered the question I posed .....

If you buy a new body shell from Frogeye spares as part of a restoration and use the VIN and tags from your old rusted out car, how is that any different from using those same tags on another restored body shell that is missing tags ? It is a restoration after all, right ? I think the key point here is that the previous body shell has been destroyed and scrapped.

In the case of Greeny, we have conclusively identified the correct VIN for the car, through police investigation, microfiche title records and positive photographic identification and provenance by a previous owner. So if I buy a new blank VIN tag and engine tag from VB or another source and stamp the correct VIN and engine numbers on those tags and then affix them to the car, that should be 100% legal. If Illinois is satisfied with the investigators statement, police inspection to confirm VIN and car club President value appraisal, I certainly won't argue the case with them !

Cheers
Lew

My sense is that this is one time where the answer really is "it depends." Sadly there are too many instances of cars stolen, insurance scams, rebuilding scams, changing the spec scams that laws are necessary. While I completely and fully in agreement with the laws, I think there is a massive difference between those various scams and someone who just wants their own old car back on the road legally. In that case, it doesn't seem like such a big deal, but, lets be honest, even there someone will try to beat the system.

one observation I would make is that this is one of those conversations that significant aspects of should probably not be commited to a public forum. I appreciate the intent is to retrieve the original VIN and am not referring to that but, certainly the offer from the guy on the other forum....

 

[Trevor Jessie]

Because the newly fabricated body shell never had a VIN of its own.

 

[Rut]

Lew,
Only read the last few posts, but if it's legal to do that means it's legal...if it's right to do is a different question. I would be OK with a replacement body shell if there was a statement of full disclosure, but I don't know if I would pay the same price. We probably look at this from different perspectives since my car is strictly for my own use vs one for resale. My 1970 MGB has a later replacement engine, an 18V after I blew up the original, but it has the original engine plate to satisfy my sense of 'restoration' and a notation in the owners manual along with documentation in the Bentley workshop manual. I did the same thing with the speedometer since I had to change it to match the new OD gearbox.
Rut

 

[CLEAH]

I agree with JP that it "depends." I think it depends upon one's intent, and how one documents--which is more important now that our cars are actually worth something and there are no more being made. A reshell of a car you already own should be documented as a reshell, because that is what it is. I don't in the least have any concerns about assembling a car out of a bunch of parts that came from 100 other cars, as long as it is so documented. We're on a continuum that runs from outright fraud to legally and ethically fine, so in my mind the resolution is documentation. I realize that an unscrupulous person down the line can destroy the documentation (thus creating a fraud)--but at least the builder of the car did the right thing. I know too that a truly original car with proven provenance will win out in the end, and a bitsa will be harder to pass off as genuine. I also know that many don't care about provenance. All fine. I'm mostly concerned about the person who buys a car that appears to be, say, an early production Sprite, when it is no such thing. I gotta say that I am really shocked about that guy from the other forum with the Sprite VIN. "Hey, I have an early Sprite tag..I can help you out..."

By the way, Lew, I think it is fantastic that you were able to get to the bottom of Greeny's identity!

 

[The_architect]

This is like a problem for an ethics class or property law...is ownership read with the tag and title, or the car, which could be made of 1000 parts from other cars. We could argue about this all day.

My VIN tag is from a different car than my shell and body tags. Imagine my surprise (and disappointment) when I got my British Heritage certificate and the car as described (tan) did not match the car I bought (red, at least under the carpet). The fellow who runs the certificate department did identify a red car from the body tags, and was nonplussed about it. He said, it is probably a reshell and this happens all the time.

It has a 1275 engine from another car, and who knows what else, what if I put a couple of Miata seats in there, and put some Rostyles on it? When does it stop being the car that is associated with the VIN?

The cells in my body regenerate all the time, so when do I stop being me? If I lose my passport and drivers license am I not me anymore?

I have a clean title and as far as the law is concerned as long as the car that is attached to the tag matches the title, and that is the car I own.

The PO had had that car for 20 years--or did he only have the tag and title for 20 years? Once, for grins, I did enter the VIN in a stolen car database, and it goes nowhere, because there are not enough digits/letters. Yeah, it bothers me a bit, but WTH am I going to do about it?

Lewmac wrote, "So, my only choice to get a title appeared to be to find a set of tags with a title, essentially buy another Bugeye body in need of restoration. How often does it happen, that when you really need a part or in this case, a bugeye body or a set of tags with title, that it appears on eBay ?"

But someone did, or does have them in this case. So CLEAH you're saying to Lewmac it would have been unethical to accept them if he could not have gotten to the bottom of his issues. But if he can't legally drive the car, which is its function, isn't the car worthless as a car, in which the car's value is determined not by its pieces but because it has a VIN attached to it that matches numbers on a piece of paper in the possession of him.

Otherwise it is just a pile of metal, rubber, and plastic--and these are given their value by being built for purpose.

Or does the ethical dilemma go away because he is a good guy and isn't trying to put one over on anybody. I don't know but I am sure that the guy who made the offer of title was trying to help out someone in exactly the same situation as lewmac before he got his title. And maybe that is what happened to my car too.

I would never have known if I hadn't gotten the certificate, and what am I suppose to do now, try and track down the person who once owned the car attached to the body tags and find out if the shell they were attached to was stolen and, if so, return whatever parts I can identify as theirs to them? Or maybe those body tags don't even belong to the shell of the car that is attached to my VIN tag at all, maybe they were just screwed to A-pillars that were grafted on from a third car...I don't think you can prove it either way.

This is getting ridiculous. I think I will just stick to what the law thinks, which is that because the car my VIN tag is attached to matches the title in my possession it is mine.

One thing I have to ask everybody is why they think the manufacturer of these cars didn't rivet the tags to the car? This was 1958-60. Stolen cars were not a new thing, rivets were not a new thing, it couldn't have been a cost issue, so what's the deal? Perhaps it was just their assumption that these cars were going to be reshelled so why bother?

 

[CLEAH]

. I think I will just stick to what the law thinks, which is that because the car my VIN tag is attached to matches the title in my possession it is mine.

This is not about ownership, it is about identity. Taking the VIN plate from one car and placing it on another is illegal. I'm willing to recognize nuances, such as major repairs or a reshell if it is documented, but the law will not be similarly kind if it gets to that. Actually, I suspect that most DMV's have a mechanism in place already. If you build a custom car, you get it inspected and get a state assigned VIN--all good. If you find a stripped Bugeye shell and want to build a bitsa, I'd suggest discussing the matter with the State to see how they will view it. Or go buy a VIN from someone. Your choice.

 

[The_architect]

Of course this thread is about ownership. The whole thing is. I agree that that it is illegal to remove a VIN from one car and put it onto another. Good point. Nobody suggested that it was OK though. The VIN and title offered by the fellow on the other website once belonged to a car that no longer exists.

From my perspective, if having the documentation or not is is the difference between his car being legal to title and drive and one that only has value parted out it's a no brainer.

 

[smaceng]

In reading the CA code from the Department of Motor Vehicles, it is illegal for the owner of a car, unless it is being scrapped, to remove the VIN plate without the approval of the Department. It does not include any option without Department approval of using a donor car, restoration, etc as we have been discussing in this post. Thus if Lewmac needs to have a new VIN plate made and attach it to his car, in CA, he would need to take the documentation to the CA Dept of Motor Vehicles and get them to approve the process. More than likely, an officer of the Department would need to inspect the installed plate and the car and verify it.

In saying that, for my BE, the owner lost the VIN plate (commission plate) when I bought it (car was in pieces), but I had a bill of sale from the previous owner which listed a valid (year and format correct) commission number. I had a trophy shop make me a new one and I attached it to the body with two phillips screws. While my intentions were good, I should have gotten the Department approval. Now in CA, that can be a royal headache!!! Just showing up at the Department without an appointment could mean up to a two hour wait.
Scott in CA

 

[lewmac]

Certainly an interesting discussion. To be clear, I am not using the tags and title from the other scrapped body shell on Greeny, since I have now the correct VIN, BAE and engine numbers. However, I agree with the architect that if it means another Bugeye can stay alive and be restored to former glory, why not, particularly if the tags and title are from a body shell that has been scrapped.

On another Bugeye restoration project a few years ago, I purchased an ex race car Bugeye totally bare body shell with CA title and tags. I also had an original Mk2 that needed extensive rust repairs, so I transferred the entire running gear, electricals, dash, seats and built a Bugeye. The only differences from a Bugeye were the improved 9CG 948cc Mk2 engine with 1&1/4" carbs, Mk 2 wiring harness and gauges, fiberglass RHD dash and Mk2 seats - many would say "improvements", although minor. I even put a set of Bugeye rims on it. Anyway, the point is, it was still a Bugeye by the original VIN, although it had Mk2 guts.
My other keeper bugeye project was 100% original with matching numbers and although it will get a 1275 and disc brakes I have kept the 948 engine, 1 & 1/8" carbs, smooth case gearbox and the drum brake setup, just in case one day I sell it to someone that wants original ! I am sure I will carry these parts around for the next 10 years or so !

Although Greeny now has the correct numbers, I was extremely fortunate to have the Healey enthusiast Trooper assigned to the case. He emailed me today to say that he has had affidavit documents signed by the widow, has applied for a copy of the death certificate of the previous owner and is attempting to get a Florida Title for transfer to me. This guy is awesome !

Cheers
Lew

This is not about ownership, it is about identity. Taking the VIN plate from one car and placing it on another is illegal. I'm willing to recognize nuances, such as major repairs or a reshell if it is documented, but the law will not be similarly kind if it gets to that. Actually, I suspect that most DMV's have a mechanism in place already. If you build a custom car, you get it inspected and get a state assigned VIN--all good. If you find a stripped Bugeye shell and want to build a bitsa, I'd suggest discussing the matter with the State to see how they will view it. Or go buy a VIN from someone. Your choice.

 

[smaceng]

We do things to these old cars which we think is OK, like me making a new commission plate, but it really is not. As we all sometimes find out the hard way, the government has laws about almost everything. It is like melting down pennies for the copper. Sounds OK, but it is not! And the list goes on.......And Lewmac, I don't think anyone would have a problem with the two examples you gave above.....The VIN plate stayed with the body!
Scott in CA

 

[lewmac]

Re: A Bugeye tale ..... a finale !

Today was a good day.

The Trooper called Monday to organize a local Law Enforcement Officer to inspect the vehicle and the correct VIN plate. Then he told me that he had secured the necessary affidavit paperwork from the widow who sold the cars and had succeeded in negotiating with a Department head at Florida DMV to have a title issued in my name, with the correct VIN number. Great news !

Then today I had a call from a very nice lady to take credit card info to have the title issued....as we spoke on the phone I could hear the printer at work. $471 later, the Florida title in my name for a 1960 Austin Healey Sprite AN5L / 30338, otherwise known as Greeny, is on it way to Illinois by certified mail.

Stoked !

Car is now for sale. Located in Champaign, Illinois. Would love to sell it and have it picked up before we move to Chicago July 12th.

https://plus.google.com/photos/103018447551919327645/albums/6099206473975996881?sort=1

Cheers
Lew

 

[JPSmit]

congratulations! nice when things work out - nice also that the "serve" part of serve & protect came through