5 speed

[Gerard]

Hap,

Are the after market seals really THAT bad I haven't heard much about them except for if you leave out the shim/spacer when fitting the flywheel it'll tear the seal, I recently bought a moss kit but now I fell uncomfortable fitting it, darn you! You mentioned a re-design leaving the scroll eyebrow, you don't happen to have some more Intel on that?

My seal kit does not use the same "eyebrow" available from the usual suppliers. It incorporated the same design as the original factory piece, so mine takes advantage of the scroll seal design.

 

[taskadog]

I've got the MiniMania seal kit.
When I accidently left the hose from the timing chain cover off, I had quite a leak from the rear seal.
With the correct hook up, the leak is pretty small.
My Conclusion:
The $300.00 seal kit does nothing. Properly vented an A series will leak a little.

BillM's kit works well, but I'm starting to wonder if my 5th gear isn't a little noisy

Phil

 

[Gerard]

I've got the MiniMania seal kit.
When I accidently left the hose from the timing chain cover off, I had quite a leak from the rear seal.
With the correct hook up, the leak is pretty small.
My Conclusion:
The $300.00 seal kit does nothing. Properly vented an A series will leak a little.

Phil

Hi Phil,

Well, just to clarify, if you go back a few posts in this thread, you will see that that is what I have stated in the first place regarding venting. I was sarcastically challenged on the accuracy of that statement, and questioned whether what I had to offer was the same as everything else out there. For those who desire to have this retrofit, I'm just stating that <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-style: italic">no</span></span>, it is not the same. Mine is less expensive as well.

 

[Hap Waldrop]

Show us a picture Gerard.

 

[BlueMax]

Yes, I too would like to see a photo of your newly design rear eyebrow seal.

 

[RickB]

I've got the MiniMania seal kit.
When I accidently left the hose from the timing chain cover off, I had quite a leak from the rear seal.
With the correct hook up, the leak is pretty small.
My Conclusion:
The $300.00 seal kit does nothing. Properly vented an A series will leak a little.

Phil

Hi Phil,

Well, just to clarify, if you go back a few posts in this thread, you will see that that is what I have stated in the first place regarding venting. I was sarcastically challenged on the accuracy of that statement, and questioned whether what I had to offer was the same as everything else out there. For those who desire to have this retrofit, I'm just stating that <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-style: italic">no</span></span>, it is not the same. Mine is less expensive as well.

Hi Gerard, try not to take anything personally.
This is a lively group and there are a lot of extremely knowledgeable Spridget owners here.

People here will sometimes challenge each other, and I think that's part of what makes this place great.
If your 'widget' is truly better then it's going to be popular, if it isn't then it's going to get panned. That's the risk of putting it out there.

You have a good reputation, and any who know you at all know that.

 

[Gerard]

Yes, I too would like to see a photo of your newly design rear eyebrow seal.

Original 1098cc on left, 1275cc on right.

Original BMC part compared to lip seal replacement part.

Typical "eyebrow" piece supplied with other kits at bottom of picture.

 

[BlueMax]

I was hoping to see 21st century engineering, but after viewing the backing plate their really wasn’t any option for a neoprene design seal. I can only see installation of the eyebrow and off to the machine shop for a line hone, which works fine until the scroll gets touch from crankshaft flex and the leak is back. It’s really disappoints me that BMC didn’t do a better job in this area, they did have their thinking caps on when they design the Mini rear main seal. In my view Will’s has the best solution at this time, utilizing a neoprene seal to compensate for crankshaft flex. The only issue with Will’s design is that the crankshaft is design in such a way that you can’t install a speedy sleeve when the seal finely groves the shaft, but knowing what he’s working with their really was know other solution without having to do major modifications to the block for the oil drain back. Then we have the issue of the grove that cuts its path, then the crankshaft would have to be welded and re-machine for a seal with a smaller ID or back to the standard dimension. If you undersize the crankshaft then a smaller ID seal would have to be utilize. Who knows speedy sleeve may have or will have a solution in the future? What would be great is a newly design crank that would allow an adaptor to be attach to the back of the block like the B type engines. I for one can appreciate your efforts and drive with hope that you’ll find the right combination for all the A type car enthusiast with innovations and inspirations!!

 

[Gerard]

I was hoping to see 21st century engineering, but after viewing the backing plate their really wasn’t any option for a neoprene design seal.

I think you are missing that there is another part to this seal. What I showed in the pictures is the "controversial" part. The issue was that since the design of the "eyebrow" in the lip seal kits aborted the use of the scroll seal, (the usual replacement piece leaves a 1/8" to 1/4" gap), they failed.

To see the other half of it, see my web site at this link and explore a little:

https://gerardsgarage.com/Garage/Tech/5speedKit.htm

This seal is not dependent on having a 5 speed kit installed. It works with a completely stock setup as well.

Personally, I've never seen a crankshaft damaged by making contact with the rear main cap or eyebrow. It's either urban legend or only seen when a lot else is wrong. In any event, if that is the case, only more reason to have the lip seal for backup.

 

[BlueMax]

Yes I’m fully aware of what you have done; you have taken this kit and adapted it to your backing plate. What I truly would like to see is more in line of the B type engine design, not utilizing the split adaptor that holes the seal with two allen head screws that attaches to the eyebrows and the adapter as you have shown. With the eyebrow being apart of the rear main bearing cap it’s very hard to sell a kit that the average back yard mechanic can put on their engine with out extensive modifications that most people would never spend that kind of money on. I’m completely aware of your dilemma and the operating parameters that your dealing with to market a product! It's not easy.

Line honing the A type blocks give excellent results but invariably the leak will start back because of crankshaft flexing causing the eyebrow to wear when touch by reverse scroll increasing the clearance were by prevent all the oil to be push back into the sump, hence the persistent drip. When I work with BMC you didn’t have that issue with the new cars because the tolerances were close enough to prevent the leakage. How could you sell a new car if they leak Oil? Every now and then you would see some that slip pass QE. We just usually change the engine under warranty to keep the customer happy, knowing that it would eventually start back after the warranty expired.

I do wish you well.

 

[Gerard]

...you have taken this kit and adapted it to your backing plate.

not exactly... there is no dependence or relation to the rear plate. I'm merely showing there is a <span style="font-style: italic">provision</span> to work with the 5 speed kit <span style="font-style: italic">as well as</span> the stock setup. It's not adaptation, but what I expect to be a significant improvement in the performance since the "eyebrow" now replicates the function of the original BMC design (which other kits do not). If, as you suggest, the loss in tolerance can lead to some weeping, then it seems that this solution may help cure the small leak issues, provided everything else is done right. I guess time will tell.

 

[Trevor Jessie]

OK, now I see what you're doing. I think the issue is may be how smooth/round the flange is on the crank. The rivergate 5-speed kit does retain the original brow cap. On my previous engine it did not stop the slow oil weep. After the rebuild and proper positioning of the cap the leak stopped.

 

[Gerard]

After the rebuild and proper positioning of the cap the leak stopped.

Thank you... Yes, that's what I have been saying... always a prerequisite and the key to success!

 

[jlaird]

A no driper or a just a touch of a drip. Check out the wiki here to see how I fixed Miss Agatha for free.

Yep really works, is still working and has been about a year I think.

 

[Hap Waldrop]

Gerard, yes I see you have put the eyebrow back into the eyebrow piece, and improvement over the current designs, but there is still a major flaw with this or any of the rear seal design attempts. The deal is the eyebrow mouting is ultra importatnt, it has to be position almost prefectly, most leave them in place duing line boring/honing, they need to be the same distance to the crank as the main cap side, somewhere around .002" is about as good as it gets, most racer leave the eyebrow in place during engine refreshes, and for the most part this is probaby the #1 reason most DIY engine builders have leak issues at the rear, because they have done a poor alignment job on the eyebrow piece. Ok with that being said the all the rear seal design including yours, relying on the three mounting bolts of the eyebrow piece to also mount the upper seal housing, which totally elminates the alignment of the eyebrow, the mounting of the upper seal seal housing half needs to separate from the eyebrow, because the eyebrow needs to properly aligned then left alone.

All the proper solutions I seen or thought to correct this, would leave fabrication on the end user's side and regulate this part not very sellable to the consumer. I think some sort of appraoch like Will's at Rivergate did, where you did a entire new backplate with seal housing that does nothing more than makes for a back up to the orginal design is the way to go, this is what make Will's aproach so clever, it's back up system not a replacment system.

 

[Gerard]

Gerard, yes I see you have put the eyebrow back into the eyebrow piece, and improvement over the current designs, but there is still a major flaw with this or any of the rear seal design attempts. The deal is the eyebrow mouting is ultra importatnt, it has to be position almost prefectly,

Hi Hap,

I completely agree with you on the importance of alignment and fit of the eyebrow. After all, I have been saying this all along and is part of the "secret" to building an engine that doesn't leak. However, I need to address some of your other remarks.

I would first like to point out that the 1098cc version of the seal does not fit your mounting description. The 1098cc eyebrow is mounted by 3 countersunk 1/4"x28 socket head cap screws and fitted in the same fashion you describe. The seal portion is attached by 3 <span style="font-style: italic">separate</span> mounting screws <span style="font-style: italic">after</span> the eyebrow is located. There are also provisions to adjust position of the seal in relation to the eyebrow after that has been locked down. It's the identical procedure you describe.

Secondly, I really can't agree with you that it is not possible to position the eyebrow correctly with the 1275 3 bolt design. There is a technique I use to position them in any stock situation which can still be applied with the seal kit. I agree that many DIYers don't have the experience, skill or attention to detail to always do this correctly, but in my view, that circumstance only adds to the value of having the secondary seal and where it has the greatest need and value.

While I couldn't agree more that the original design is a recipe for disaster because it leaves a <span style="font-style: italic">gap of 1/4" to 1/8"</span> (yes, that much), where there should be (as you indicate), .002". I believe if everything else is done correctly, this modification mitigates the potential leakage issue if not done 100% perfect.

Also, while you like Will's solution, it's not any help to someone who's not doing a 5 speed kit. It's pretty obvious, while very popular, the majority of the cars out there don't have 5 speed conversions in them.

I think, especially in the cases where someone is not installing a 5 speed kit, it provides an alternative solution where OE gearbox is used. I still view that as a good backup solution, as you suggest Will's is.

Since this design has not really had time for much feedback, I don't think you can fairly make the blanket statement and assumption that it's not "viable for the consumer". I think you are "throwing the baby out with the bath water".

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate your putting critical eye on it. You don't know me, but I am <span style="font-style: italic">not</span> someone who thinks they don't have anything to learn from others. Anyone who knows me personally knows that not to be the case. I <span style="font-style: italic">am</span> someone who has many times tried and succeeded when others said "that's not possible". In addition, your blanket statements claims of "failure" of this design smacks of the skepticism applied to hundreds of new ideas over time from the idea that the world is round to "man will never fly" and beyond. If you haven't tested it yourself, it's really only your opinion, not a fact. You've not seen this specific design tested before, correct?

I want to reiterate that it's my belief that a lot of other stuff has to be done correctly first to have a successful outcome, and that I don't see this as a necessity in all circumstances nor a panacea in all cases for the dreaded "rear seal drip. Just another alternative and/or some extra insurance. YMMV

Anyway, I thank you again for the feedback and criticism. It only helps me and others to learn more and hopefully find ways to improve things even more.

 

[Hap Waldrop]

Gerard, ok, I'm all ears and eyes, so the upper seal half bolts somewhere other than the three normal eyebrow mounting holes, but you have not shown us that, when we look at your eyebrow piece, which is for sure an improvement over the MM kit and others, I still don't any additional mounting holes for the upper seal portion, so where and how does it attach?

If you want to convince us, then show us. No harm meant, but if I'm going to market some thing as a great improvment, the surely I would show the consumer audience why it is a great improvment, that would be the selling point of your improved product, and I know a bit about marketing and making sales In short, if this is great improvement, show us why, inquiring minds want to know.

OK, thinking outloud, lets talk about Will's aproach, with the add on plate not messing with the original eyebrow, why could not something like his apprach be done to a non 5 speed car, the first hurdle I see is one would have to drill and tap attachment points for such an add-on, or sell it with a aluminum non 4 speed back plate whic accomondate this type of design, those have been availalbe for years, I even CNC made them myself, and they could be easily modded or redesigned for a approach like Wills, and get totaly away form the repalcment eyebrow. Just so we're all on the same apge, I'll post a pic of Will's (Rivergate) newer rear seal kit, this was installed on customer's hot rod 1275 I built.

 

[Gerard]

Gerard, ok, I'm all ears and eyes, so the upper seal half bolts somewhere other than the three normal eyebrow mounting holes, but you have not shown us that, when we look at your eyebrow piece, which is for sure an improvement over the MM kit and others, I still don't any additional mounting holes for the upper seal portion, so where and how does it attach?

Well, I'm having trouble getting the camera connected to the computer now for some reason, so maybe that will follow some other time.

why could not something like his apprach be done to a non 5 speed car

Mainly because it's too expensive and there's too little interest. I don't machine these parts myself, I have to pay someone to make them. While most people probably don't appreciate how much time and expense it takes to manufacture this stuff, you should. It took me months to find someone who was willing to make this stuff without huge up front costs, not to mention per unit cost that wasn't more than what people expect or pay for at "retail". Let's face it, these aren't Jags or even Datsun Roadsters that people are willing to pay what this stuff should realistically cost.

I've been doing this with the purpose of supporting the hobby and trying to come up with good solutions or better made parts. I'm not trying to prove anything and I'm growing weary of being asked to do so.

This isn't a business for me. I don't have a big shop with dozens of customers like you do. People who (locally) see what I've done either laugh at me (the guys who restore and collect cars of considerable more value) for wasting so much time on something that isn't appreciated for what it really worth or else they know and appreciate my skills and want me to apply that skill for them.

I'll just have to be satisfied with that.

 

[Hap Waldrop]

Gerard, I here you loud and clear, I'm probably going to get in trouble for saying this here, but overall the Spridget crowd is a bit on the cheap side, because well, this are cheap classic cars to own. The biggest thing that slows down R&D for new inovations for these cars, are the people that own them. With VTO and the wheels we have to be a bit more selective with how we spend out money for the Spridget crowd because they are just not going to come close the money being spent by the MGB or big Triumph crowd, this is what slowed up us having 14" wheels for the Spridgets. All I heard was how much people wanted these 14" Spridget wheels, now that I've got them, 1 set has sold, promises don't pay the light bill. This sterotype does not include all Spridget owners, just the majority, Lord knows I been able to find the Spridget folks that wants the finer things.


With that being said, I think the viable market for a well working non 5 speed rear seal kit is the Spridget race crowd, not the street crowd, those guys will spend the bucks if the product is proven. The biggest hurdle with all this, is decades of people selling a kit that didn't work, it kinda like GM and diesel engines, by the time they got it right, no one was interested anymore. I, like you am not going to be the one to fight this fight though, because I'm already too busy with other stuff.

 

[JPSmit]

Gerard, I here you loud and clear, I'm probably going to get in trouble for saying this here, but overall the Spridget crowd is a bit on the cheap side,

we prefer "frugal" *sniff*