5 speed or not ?

[Steve_S]

If you can come up with rebuilt 3 syncro overdrives at $1100 that would be amazing

Bob, perhaps you didn't read my post in its entirety? I have them sitting in my garage. As I said, the first cost me $250 plus an $850 rebuild. The other two cost me $200 each plus shipping and they too will need to be rebuilt (obviously). If an overdrive box is completely trashed then you can expect to pay a bit more for a rebuild, probably more like $1100-1200. If you had acted a couple years ago, you could have bought a truckload of them from Moss, fully rebuilt with warranty for $1400 each.

I must respectfully, yet completely disagree that a T9 box feels the same as a Mowog box. Even the 3-sync versus 4-sync Mowog boxes feel completely different from one another - different enough that many owners of Mark I MGBs won't install 4-sync models in their cars. The T9 box is a wonderful piece of kit, but it does not feel or sound the same.

I suspect your views on cost may be due to limiting yourself to the usual suppliers within the continental US. Shopping in the states, the overdrive module and related components are the most expensive parts, while the rest of the gearbox can be found easily for free, assuming you bought an overdrive kit without a gearbox attached. So your quote of $875 plus a free gearbox, and then paying someone to build it up should bring your total to around $1500. Not too shabby for a brand new OD transmission! If you're interested in finding one cheaper, there are a TON of them on eBay UK, some starting at one pound ($1.44). Shipping to the US will cost about $200.

As an example... how about a working, tested overdrive 4-sync gearbox delivered to your door for $890? Click here. You can buy them all day at that price.

As for durability, 3-sync gearboxes are certainly less robust in certain areas than 4-sync LH units, mainly layshaft bearings. I did pretty well on a non-OD 3-sync box by getting 250,000 miles out of it before a rebuild was necessary but that's unusual. They usually don't last more than two engine rebuilds in my experience. Later models usually outlast the early ones by quite a bit because of the larger layshaft and bearings. When I finally had my 3-sync rebuilt, I had the larger shaft and double bearings installed, so theoretically it should be as strong as a later one which is good since it will be going into a car with 150+ HP. An LH OD module would have been a better idea for this car but the OD will be mainly for highway use so it should be fine, and I really do prefer the feel of the early box over the later one. Just personal preference, really.

Now you see why i do not normally post on this kind of thread...Bob

If you don't like comparing ideas then you're in the wrong place! :wink:

 

[bob67bgt]

Once you close you mind there is no comparing of ideas. Testai brought price into the mix. I thought i would clear that up using the normal suppliers. Compare apples to apples not used to new. Also i build my own kits using a mustang T5. I do not just limit myself to the normal suppliers. If you can not supply or assist in getting someone a properly rebuilt early O/D box for $1500 or less then your numbers are out the window for me. I had a closed mind about Miatas 9 years ago. Still i purchased one and it took a while to let go of the block in my head saying the mg could do anything the Miata can. Now i can experience the magic of the MG the thrill of the Miata and the shifting of the T5, datsun,full syncro O/D, regular 3 syncro and the miata 6 speed. If you ever get to the Monroe NC area stop in for a coffee and you can take out my 67 GT and see what you think. Bob

 

[testaj]

Testai brought price into the mix. I thought i would clear that up using the normal suppliers. Bob

Bob
You havent cleared up anything for me-my point still stands that $2700 for a 5speed gearbox is insane. Just because Moss wants $3300.00 for an o/d doesn't justify buying a 5speed. Moss can ask any stupid price they want and watch those parts sit on the shelf and collect dust waiting for the uniformed and money-wasting few to pull the trigger. As for me, if I were to do anything, Quantum Mechanics would be the only place I would buy a trans from. So my point still stands-spending 1/3 to 1/2 the price of a car on its trans is just plain ridiculous.

 

[bob67bgt]

I would also have trouble spending $2700. when USED overdrives are availabe alot cheaper. Just keep in mind that used can be great or you can be throwing you money away. These cars are toys to most people and its all about how nice or what options are right for you. If you have a late car(68-80) the Rivergate kit may be for you. Our local pull a part gets Datsun Z cars in regularly and $100 will get you a USED and untested box. This may be a good option for your budget. The engines in good condition will take the extra revs of a standard trans all day long. Its all about what its worth to you to get the extra gearing. When i travel in one of my MGB's i run the "I" roads and run with traffic. That is important to me. Sometimes the back roads are to be enjoyed after you get to your destination. Just enjoy your car and try not to be a rolling road block on the interstates! Bob

 

[bob67bgt]

Testaj, If you are in my area we can take the rubber bumper GT out and you can experience a slightly modified rivergate kit. I have driven a mgb with a datsun box in it before and did not like it. The shift felt odd and not like a MG. Thats why i did my own conversion to the T5. The 74.5 GT already had the rivergate conversion in it when purchased. The shift was closer to a MG feel and my only concern was what appeared to be a very tall first and second gear. It did not want to come off the line very well. I have since done some tuning to the car and its much better. 5th is also very tall. This along with a late overdrive is the most reasonable ways to go. Some datsun boxes have gears closer to the mg and 5th is ?? .89?? rather than the ??.75 ?? in mine. I hope this info helps. Bob

 

[testaj]

Testaj, If you are in my area we can take the rubber bumper GT out and you can experience a slightly modified rivergate kit. I have driven a mgb with a datsun box in it before and did not like it. The shift felt odd and not like a MG. Thats why i did my own conversion to the T5. The 74.5 GT already had the rivergate conversion in it when purchased. The shift was closer to a MG feel and my only concern was what appeared to be a very tall first and second gear. It did not want to come off the line very well. I have since done some tuning to the car and its much better. 5th is also very tall. This along with a late overdrive is the most reasonable ways to go. Some datsun boxes have gears closer to the mg and 5th is ?? .89?? rather than the ??.75 ?? in mine. I hope this info helps. Bob

My car is a 66 so the rivergate kit wont work for me leaving me with only 2 other options-the ford box or the factory overdrive. I would love to go with the ford box but as stated earlier, not for $2700.

 

[Steve_S]

<span style="font-style: italic">"Compare apples to apples not used to new."</span>

Bob, there is no such thing as a new MGB gearbox. They stopped making them in 1980. A rebuild from Quantum is as good, if not better than new. I don't see how you can compare "new to new" when you're talking about original parts for 40-year-old cars.

<span style="font-style: italic">"If you can not supply or assist in getting someone a properly rebuilt early O/D box for $1500 or less then your numbers are out the window for me."</span>

Twice in this thread I have told you how to do this very thing. I even provided a link to a working, tested unit from a well-known vendor for $890 delivered to your door, which would cost only a few hundred dollars to put into new condition if you so desired. I don't know how much more help than that you need, but if there's something I'm missing then please, let me know.

<span style="font-style: italic">"I had a closed mind about Miatas 9 years ago. Still i purchased one and it took a while to let go of the block in my head saying the mg could do anything the Miata can."</span>

I've loved Miatas since the day they were released. I drove the first one in LA, which was owned by my father. I've driven the newer 6-speed turbo models as well and they are also great but in a different way. I prefer driving my Bs but that doesn't make the Miata any less of a car. And no, in my opinion an MGB cannot do anything a Miata can without so much modification that it is no longer an MGB.

I appreciate the offer to drive your car, but I've driven 5-speeds before. As I keep saying, they are great. But I and many others prefer the vintage feel of the M.G. box, and 3rd OD would be a hard gear to give up on a gentle canyon road.

<span style="font-style: italic">"If you don't like comparing ideas then you're in the wrong place! :wink: "
"Once you close you mind there is no comparing of ideas."</span>

Ok then...

 

[bob67bgt]

As usual this kind of thread ends up going into the trash. Your link goes to a full syncro unit. You have not shown where to get a rebuilt 3 syncro unit under $1500. I have read it correctly. And ok rebuilt to used...sorry i said new. Now lets let this go and get on with actually helping fellow MGers fix their cars. Its been a interesting exchange and time to move on. Bob

 

[Steve_S]

I thought we were helping people to fix their cars...? There is a lot of useful info in this thread but if you feel it's trash then it's your right to not participate. Sorry if you got upset over anything, I'm sure no one intended as such.

Three times now I've given you the resources to find an early overdrive inexpensively but I will continue to try to help you. No, they are not as easy to find as 4-sync models and yes, they often cost more because they are less numerous. Have you even done any searching of your own using my leads? Phone calls, internet searches, etc.? I wasn't aware you wanted me to do your parts hunting! A fourth time now I will try to help and will go as far as to search the web for you, but I'm not calling England on my dime! :wink:

Here you go, just arrange for a courier to pick up and ship, should cost around $300. Add the $360 for the gearbox and $800 or so for a rebuild and you're at $1460 for a rebuilt 3-sync overdrive gearbox. Click here. I found this in 30 seconds with an internet search.

 

[testaj]

Here you go, just arrange for a courier to pick up and ship, should cost around $300. Add the $360 for the gearbox and $800 or so for a rebuild and you're at $1460 for a rebuilt 3-sync overdrive gearbox. [

That is not worth the hassel when you can get a rebuilt one ready to go from Quantum for $300.00 more

 

[Steve_S]

I wish you could, but they charge $2575 for a no-exchange D-Type, and $1975 for the same in LH-Type. It makes far more sense to find a good used box and have it serviced, in my opinion. I'd rather not have to buy one from England of course, and fortunately I was able to find all of mine on the west coast, one locally.

 

[Deleted member 3577]

There are Miata times and there are MGA times...
I love them both...(and separately)

You must have 2 cars...(my opinion...at least)
When you try to make one car be everything...Something is lost.

Stay original...But make it the most fun original car that it can be.

Have you ever double de-clutched?
If you ever want to drive some types of race cars...It is a mandatory skill.

 

[Steve_S]

Indeed! :laugh: Another true joy is an old preselector gearbox. Since the day I first drove one, I've lusted over owning one myself. I know they are expensive, heavy, complicated, inefficient and impossibly difficult to rebuild, but I gotta have one! It's the most fun I've had shifting in a long time.

 

[Deleted member 3577]

Another true joy is an old preselector gearbox. Since the day I first drove one, I've lusted over owning one myself.

I'd sure like to try one...

Funky setup...
You select the next gear & then you push the 'clutch' pedal to make it happen.

Apparently very smooth engagement w/ no blipping & double declutching.

After a short google search, the cheapest car with one I can find is a Riley Imp.
(still not cheap)

 

[bob67bgt]

First, Steve. There is no place on this forum for people to talk down to others. When you say to me for the 4th time and show a stupid purple face thats just not called for. You did come up with a 3 syncro O/D. Although its not in your original price range and the buyer has to arrange transport!Good enough.That answers 1/2 of the question. YOU said that a 3 syncro O/D can be had and rebuilt for under $1500. Now you can finish answering the question.We are trying to assist people that do not know where to go for a proper $800 rebuild.What shop will PROPERLY rebuild a 3 syncro overdrive and give a warranty for YOUR quoted price? This is how we can assist people on this fourm. A blank statement of rebuild for $800...Where? As to my experience with 3 syncro transmissions last year i went thru my 3 syncro boxes. Of the 12 or 13 i had all but 3 had bad first and laygears. Now when you buy a used untested box you may have a 1 in 4 chance in getting gears that are servicable.(estimate) They are expensive to get new and to find them used can take some hunting. Next, The MGB trans is a very durable unit. The 68-74? overdrives are best. Most 3 syncro units have a 3 bearing layshaft that wears and syncros that are a wear item. Later full syncro overdrives have a problem with thrust washers in the O/d. Not the case with a 5 speed. You said the vacuum switch is not needed for a early trans. I guess you know more than the people that designed it. Lets put facts on the table and let people make up their own minds. If you NEED 3rd O/d to carve up them canyon roads great! The small hills here on the east side of the country are best suited for a gear between 2nd and 3rd. Thats a opinion. The Miata comment was meant to say that if i had closed my mind to different things i would not be enjoying a Miata today.It was not to compare the 2 cars.If i did not give the car a chance and live with it a while i could not judge its good and bad points, same with a 5 speed. Steve, you are definely NOT doing this for me. Please assist people that want to follow you lead. I may even send a early O/D in for a PROPER $800 warranty rebuild. OK i know you did not mention warranty...But we are comparing a warranty 5 speed T9 kit at $2700 +/- to a $2575. Quantum Proper rebuild with a warranty and you may still need the harness and unobtainable vacuum switch. Definatly show us how to get the SAME product cheaper. That helps make this fourm work. Thanks for you help. Bob

 

[billspohn]

There are Miata times and there are MGA times...
I love them both...(and separately)

You must have 2 cars...(my opinion...at least)
When you try to make one car be everything...Something is lost.

Of course you COULD develop an MGA body kit for a Miata....sorry, lost my head there for a minute.

Steve, Bob, don't know what the problem is with you guys quietly discussing things, but let me add my .02 worth.

Steve is correct - the vacuum switch is not needed. It was never used on most other cars that had the Laycock OD units and they all function perfectly without it.

As far as knowing more than the factory that designed and built these cars, I long ago concluded that I know one heck of a lot more than the factory did on some issues - I came to this conclusion working with MGA Twin Cams, which the factory never properly figured out but which we can run reliably today.

Many, many items included in these cars were there either because they were the bright idea of some designer who threw out the idea and got it included in production, or later because of smog restrictions that caused them to take all sorts of half-assed measures to try and allow them to continue to sell cars. The factory is NOT gospel and never was.

The 3 synch box does suffer a somewhat shorter service life due to the 3 bearing layshaft. But there is an easy fix - just buy a 1967/8 larger 4 bearing shaft and gear and ream the case to suit and you have a box that will last as long as the all synch, if 200K isn't a long enough life. In practice, I find that pulling the gearbox every 100K or so when you pull the engine for an overhaul, and refreshing synchros and checking the layshaft and bearings is the easiest way to go.

As I believe I said somewhere much earlier in this lengthy thread, I am in a somewhat unusual situation of having in my stable cars with the 3 synch OD box, the 4 synch OD box and also the American 5 speed (in my case the T5, not the T9).

I honestly prefer the 3 synch OD, though I certainly wouldn't expect everyone to share that somewhat hairshirt attitude. I see no advantage to the T5/T9 over the all synch OD MG box. Yes, the MG box will probably last you only 100K. At the rate that most hobbyists put on miles, that means that we will probably exhaust all known oil reserves before the gearbox wears out, so I really see no issue here.

And yes, the 3rd gear OD ratio IS handy, not for acceleration, but for in-town driving so you can flip a switch instead of rowing a lever when running at secondary road speeds.

 

[Steve_S]

Good lord Bob, I think you're seriously misinterpreting my intention. I was not trying to talk down to you, and the "stupid purple face" is a standard forum emoticon meant to imply silliness. It's meant for humor, not insult. In this I used it to show how mind-boggling parts hunting can be. Really, no one in this thread is upset in the slightest except for you, and if I somehow offended you by stating my preferences and experiences then I again apologize.

I could be warranted in becoming offended myself at your persistent need to find flaws in my posts, contradicting everything I say and accusing me of lying to and misleading my fellow MG enthusiasts. But I am not offended because I realize this must be some sort of misunderstanding and prefer to give the benefit of the doubt, or worst case just brush it off. Words on a computer screen cannot show intent or emotion and are easily misinterpreted. By all means question my statements if you feel its warranted but please do it in a civil manner! I have tried to be as polite as possible and would appreciate the same in return. This is a friendly board for exchanging ideas, not for questioning people's motives.

<span style="font-style: italic">"Now you can finish answering the question.We are trying to assist people that do not know where to go for a proper $800 rebuild.What shop will PROPERLY rebuild a 3 syncro overdrive and give a warranty for YOUR quoted price?"</span>

Quantum Mechanics, one of the best rebuilders in the world completely rebuilt my 3-syncro OD for $800 and yes, they do it properly and offer a warranty. To answer your next question yes, if the gearbox is in horrible shape then it will cost more due to parts.

<span style="font-style: italic">"Next, The MGB trans is a very durable unit. The 68-74? overdrives are best. Most 3 syncro units have a 3 bearing layshaft that wears and syncros that are a wear item."</span>

I believe I addressed this earlier, as did Bill above. To reiterate, simply install the later shaft with stronger bearings an the early gearbox should last as long as the later ones. I have this mod in my '65 B with its 3-sync OD gearbox.

<span style="font-style: italic">"Steve, you are definely NOT doing this for me. Please assist people that want to follow you lead."</span>

I don't quite understand what you're saying, but if you mean that my opinion is not of interest to you then that's ok. Just ignore my posts.

<span style="font-style: italic">"You said the vacuum switch is not needed for a early trans. I guess you know more than the people that designed it. Lets put facts on the table and let people make up their own minds."</span>

Bob, please accept the fact that not everything the engineers did on these cars was necessary, or even right. I do not know more about automotive design than those who designed the MGB, but I do know that the switch is not necessary for the overdrive to function properly, as confirmed by Bill above who apparently DOES know more than the factory. :wink:

 

[Steve_S]

Bill, a well-stated post as usual and I agree with every word. Well, except for the MGA-bodied Miata of course. Don't even think about it! :lol:

 

[bob67bgt]

Steve, I think you are talking about $800 just to overhaul the O/D unit itself,not including the transmission. That explains why we are looking at it different. I do look forward to your posts. Bob

 

[Steve_S]

Well, here is the scoop on the last rebuild I had Quantum do. I had a 3-sync in good order, and a 3-sync OD that had been sitting outdoors for who knows how long. I disassembled the OD box, removing all the OD-specific parts - OD module and intermediate casing, input shaft, shift tower, etc. I sent these parts along with the standard 3-sync box to Quantum. They rebuild the 3-sync, using the parts from the OD box as a conversion kit and sent me back a complete, rebuilt OD. Total cost for me was $250 for the box (admittedly a good price), $800 for rebuild and $72 shipping each way for a total of $1192.

The OD clutch cone was good because someone had soaked it in 90W oil before storage, but if it was bad then I would have been charged $300 for a replacement. My gears were in good order thankfully but had they been bad I would not have bought new ones. 3-sync boxes are so plentiful that I would simply have grabbed another for free, or perhaps a minimal charge, and pulled the gears I needed from that.