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3 now won't start

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TRclassic3

TRclassic3

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Things have now deteriorated to the point where the car will no longer start. I need your help. Brief history: I was atempting to address a problem with the car idling high. Things are a bit foggy now, but at some point the car started running rough, with occassional backfire. I then adjusted timeing, and centered the carbs. Things continued to get worse and after two days of working the problem over the weekend it will no longer even sart. Talk about discouraging!
I decided I needed to break this down to the basics. Fuel/Air/Spark.
Today I disconnected the fuel line at the carbs and cranked the engine. Good spurt of gas ever other revolution.
I pulled each plug in turn and and verified a good spark at each plug. There is a Pertronix electronic ignition installed(no points). I have thought about putting points in but if I am getting spark to all cylinders is ther a reason to do that?
I used a Color Tune to set the static timing by finding TDC then with the Color Tune on cylinder 1, moved the dizzy clock wise 20 degress and then with the ignition switch on moved rotated the dizzy back til I saw the spark and then tightened the dizzy down.
The car will not start. The choke works great and is properly lowering the jets. If I pull a plug after cranking for a bit it will be wet.

Where do I go from here?

HHHHHHHHHHEEEEEEEEEEEEELLLLLLLLLLLPPPPPPPPP
 
I'll be there Thursday. I can mess with it alone if you have to work.
 
hey John. Yeah, gotta work. darned frustrating experience. You are welcome to have a go at it. Thanks for the offer.
 
Try turning the dizzy back and have a go at it again.
 
It sounds as though this is getting to you and I don't want you to stress yourself out too much. Perhaps you need to sell the car...to me.

Almost sounds as though you have gone and flooded the engine. Pull all the plugs and let it dry out for a day. Do you have the dizzy set ATDC or BTDC? Try moving the timing again, this time Before Top Dead Center.
 
Too far advanced and IF it is geting spark the engine would act like it has wayyyyyyyyyy too much compression to turn over.
The plugs bieng WET after attempting to start it tells me there is NO spark or at least not enough spark.
I would check for spark with the color tune again with the distributor in its present orientation.
Be sure you are on TDC and NOT 180 around {if it was 180 out of time and getting spark it would deffinately backfire}
Last but not least ...... water in the fuel water on the plugs would deffinately look wet but would NOT ignite.

Just a thought or two from a shadetree Mech.
Kerry
 
thanks for your thoughts Kerry. I had considered a gas issue. Wasn't alot left in the tank so I got 5 fresh gallons and added, thinking that would nuetralize any problem there,

to check TDC I held my thumb over #1 plug whole until piston was on the compression stroke, verified that the rotor was aimed a #1 then lined up the timing mark.

This is correct isn't it?
 
Yes, assuming the marks are correct,

Are the valves at the point of rock?
 
The point at which one valve is closed and before the other valve opens. I think the manual calls it the point of rock. Either that or it's a town on the Maryland/Virginia border.
 
Not saying there is water in your tank, but if there is it will not mix with the gas, it will seperate out and settle to the lowest point in the tank {usualy where the pickup tube is.} One sure remedy is gas dryer or denatured alcohol add it to the gas you have in there, that way you are ensured that you are NOT dealing with a fuel gremlin.

Second thought: I dont know if your car has this or not but I have seen the two part {this balancer is common on older G.M engines} harmonic balancer slip its outter ring {this is where the timing marks are located} {there is a rubber piece between the inner hub and outter ring that deteriorates and lets the outer balanc ring slip thus rendering the timing marks useless} IF your engine harmonic balancer is configured in this same mannor it could be suspect.

Third: at the very top of the exaust stroke BOTH valves are closed, the intake is begining its cycle of opening on the down stroke of the piston. Watch the Number one cylnder valve train as you turn the engine over when the intake valve closes {you will be able to wiggle the rocker arm} you are real close to TDC. look at the timing marks on the balancer they should be in a close proximation to TDC. If the marks are no where in sight then the Harmonic balancer is whacko.

The final thing: I have seen a bad timing chain and or gear create a backfire situation and rough running engine. when it finally jumps enough teeth the engine ceases to start. Usualy in this scenerio you will occasionaly hear a backfire either through the exaust pipe or carb. {but not always}
Summary:
good fuel, adequate STRONG spark, timing marks aligned properly, carbs adjusted within reason {dont even have to be entirely accurate adjustments Just within reason} and it still wont start.
I would suspect the timing chain and or gear.
Just to be sure about the spark have someone crank the engine while you hold one of the spark plug wires next to a ground source { be careful you can get one heck of a jolt if you touch the connector with your hands} if you see a good Blue to white spark, the spark is adequate. Reddish or orange is not so good.

Kerry
 
Kerry,
You may be on to something. There is no harmonic balancer on a TR3 motor like the GM you describe, but it is possible to reassemble the pully to the crankshaft extention with the timing mark (just a drilled hole in the rear pully half)in the wrong position. There are several evenly spaced bolts that hold the pully halves in place, and no key or slot to make it fit only one way. I've come across that before, where the timing mark was way off.
I'd recommend checking fot TDC by inserting somthing into #1 plug hole and watching for it to come to the top, then check your mark and see if its right. if not, make a new one.
Sounds very much like a timing issue to me.
 
When Crypty was first brought back to life,
the engine ran the same way -rough with backfires
and then it wouldn't run at all. Wet plugs also.

Turned out to be improper timing, a weak coil and
a distributor needing to be rebuilt.
 
Thanks to all! Just a note on the timing mark. The original hole is not at the correct spot and must have been misassembled at some point in the past. The PO had obviously made new marks on the pulley. I had pulled # 1 plug, turned the fan so that I knew that it was on the compression stroke, even inserted a feeler so that I knew when it was right at TDC. I then checked the timing mark placement by the PO. It was right on the money.

Based on anopther comment I will swap out the Pertronix tonight, as it has been suggested that even though it may be providing spark, that spark could be faulty and is being delivered at the wrong time.

Question on the swap back to points. The coil currently has a wire from the Pertronix to the ingnition wire, and one wire to the coil. The other side of the coil has a wire to ground. To swap back to points I would put the ignition wire to the coil, along with the wire from the points set up (the block that is attached to the side of the dist.) and eliminate the wire from the coil to ground. Is this correct?
 
TRclassic3 said:
...
I used a Color Tune to set the static timing by finding TDC then with the Color Tune on cylinder 1, moved the dizzy clock wise 20 degress and then with the ignition switch on moved rotated the dizzy back til I saw the spark and then tightened the dizzy down.

Where do I go from here?

HHHHHHHHHHEEEEEEEEEEEEELLLLLLLLLLLPPPPPPPPP
Click to expand...

I believe you are doing this backwards. Move the dizzy CCW, then rotate it back until spark plug fires.
 
Seems backwards to me also.
10 degrees advance should get you
in the ball park.

d
 
Correct, batterywire to one small terminal of the coil, the voltage passes through the coil, down the primary wire to the pointblock/condensor where it grounds to the breaker plate and distributor then block. make sure the primary pigtail and point connection are not grounding anywhere. Only ground you want(and you do want a good ground) is when the point close.
 
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