but were afraid to ask: 
STOP!! Never post your email address in open forums. Bots can "harvest" your email! If you must share your email use a Private Message or use the 
smilie in place of the real @
Pretty Please - add it to our Events forum(s) and add to the calendar! >> 
OP
tosoutherncars
Jedi Knight
Offline
Trevor Jessie said:
Yeah... but usually in even worse shape than the engine you need to replace!
-
Hi Guest!
You can help ensure that British Car Forum (BCF) continues to provide a great place to engage in the British car hobby! If you find BCF a beneficial community, please consider supporting our efforts with a subscription.
There are some perks with a member upgrade!**Upgrade Now**
(PS: Subscribers don't see this gawd-aweful banner
1500 rebuild - some questions
- Thread starter tosoutherncars
- Start date
Share this page
Yeah... but usually in even worse shape than the engine you need to replace!
jcatnite
Jedi Knight
Offline
Be careful with the new rings and bearings. If there is a ridge at the top of the cylinder bore, the top ring can be broken by the lip as the new bearings and rings could move slightly higher at the top of the stroke. I've seen it many times. If you can hang your nail on the ridge you should remove it before reassembly. However, if your rod bearings were as worn as you say, (down to the bronze) then there could have been enough slop in the stroke to move the upper ring higher in the bore at the top of the stroke. I'm still puzzled by the broken plugs? Any takers on that one. Spark Knock? Piston slap? I'm not really buying either but that's all I can come up with at the moment.
JC
JC
Morris
Yoda
Offline
Another 2 bits from me:
Don't put new rings in if you are not going to hone (and you already know my opinion on honing). Without a proper surface to seat against, the new rings could perform worse than the old.
From your description, I feel strongly that the bulk of your problem was caused by sticky rings. Cleaning will fix that easily.
If you do end up rebuilding, this guy should be able to hook you up with the pistons you need
https://spitbits.com/1500/1500enginebits.htm
Don't put new rings in if you are not going to hone (and you already know my opinion on honing). Without a proper surface to seat against, the new rings could perform worse than the old.
From your description, I feel strongly that the bulk of your problem was caused by sticky rings. Cleaning will fix that easily.
If you do end up rebuilding, this guy should be able to hook you up with the pistons you need
https://spitbits.com/1500/1500enginebits.htm
Steve P.
Jedi Hopeful
Offline
The lined up gaps in the rings cause the high leak
down problem. While you've got the piston out, check
for cyl bore taper. Easy to do; using one of the
rings, use the piston to set the loose rign at different
postions in the bore. Use a feeler gauge to measure the
gap. Any taper will become apparent. In my experience,
this is one of the primary resons in these engines
for smoke, behind valve stems.
down problem. While you've got the piston out, check
for cyl bore taper. Easy to do; using one of the
rings, use the piston to set the loose rign at different
postions in the bore. Use a feeler gauge to measure the
gap. Any taper will become apparent. In my experience,
this is one of the primary resons in these engines
for smoke, behind valve stems.
OP
tosoutherncars
Jedi Knight
Offline
Steve, that's an excellent idea... I can't believe that didn't occur to me!
OP
tosoutherncars
Jedi Knight
Offline
Good news! (for once...)
Mic'ed the bores... they're all within a couple thou of 2.900" both top and bottom, front and back.
Pistons look to be within spec too, although it took me a second (read: ten minutes) to figure out that the 'top' measurement meant top of the skirt, not the top of the bores (i.e. above or between the rings.)
So here's the plan (against the good advice of some). I'm going to try to hone the bores, with the engine in the car. New rings, and back together it all goes.
I'll wrap the crank in plastic, and lay something (rag? newspaper) under each bore to catch the dust. Hone, then clean, clean, clean... and reassemble with new rings, new rod bearings.
If it lasts me until the fall, I'll be happy... I can always build a new motor over the winter. I'm more worried about being able to drive it a) soon, and b) without an immediate fear of engine failure, or an embarassing plume of blue smoke tapering out behind me.
Thoughts? Hurled insults?
Mic'ed the bores... they're all within a couple thou of 2.900" both top and bottom, front and back.
Pistons look to be within spec too, although it took me a second (read: ten minutes) to figure out that the 'top' measurement meant top of the skirt, not the top of the bores (i.e. above or between the rings.)
So here's the plan (against the good advice of some). I'm going to try to hone the bores, with the engine in the car. New rings, and back together it all goes.
I'll wrap the crank in plastic, and lay something (rag? newspaper) under each bore to catch the dust. Hone, then clean, clean, clean... and reassemble with new rings, new rod bearings.
If it lasts me until the fall, I'll be happy... I can always build a new motor over the winter. I'm more worried about being able to drive it a) soon, and b) without an immediate fear of engine failure, or an embarassing plume of blue smoke tapering out behind me.
Thoughts? Hurled insults?
OP
tosoutherncars
Jedi Knight
Offline
Well!! Got out the new three-stone hone / glaze breaker, and got to work. Here are some before & after pictures.
These are both cyl #1.
And here's #4
All of them look much, much better, especially #4 that had the staining. #1 has a couple of up & down scratches that still show through a little, but nothing I'm going to worry about now.
The nominal measurement doesn't seem to have changed much at all - they all still measure out to be 2.900 +/- 0.002, and not oval. I would almost consider putting the old rings back in, but I definitely need new rod bearings, so there's not much point. I'll order new rings & rod bearings together. I've taken Thursday and Friday off, and if I can get the parts, I expect to have it up & running by the weekend.
These are both cyl #1.
And here's #4
All of them look much, much better, especially #4 that had the staining. #1 has a couple of up & down scratches that still show through a little, but nothing I'm going to worry about now.
The nominal measurement doesn't seem to have changed much at all - they all still measure out to be 2.900 +/- 0.002, and not oval. I would almost consider putting the old rings back in, but I definitely need new rod bearings, so there's not much point. I'll order new rings & rod bearings together. I've taken Thursday and Friday off, and if I can get the parts, I expect to have it up & running by the weekend.
OP
tosoutherncars
Jedi Knight
Offline
Yup... if I can't find them locally, I'll take a drive to Montreal Thursday morning to pick up rings and rod bearings.
JP, great idea about the magnetic material! Almost done now, but that's definitely what I would do next time...
JP, great idea about the magnetic material! Almost done now, but that's definitely what I would do next time...
startech47
Jedi Knight
Offline
Make sure you clean the cylinder walls with soap and water. Solvent will not remove the grit from the pores of the metal cylinder walls. Than oil the cylinders immediately.
OP
tosoutherncars
Jedi Knight
Offline
startech47 said:
Would brake cleaner spray be more effective?
When I get it all together, I'll be sure to redo the compression and leakdown tests, so we'll know if all this work had any effect.
startech47
Jedi Knight
Offline
No. Brake cleaner will make the cylinder walls look clean, but will drive the small grit into the pores of the metal. Use soap and water at some point in the cleaning process.
Hap Waldrop
Yoda
Offline
On 1500 on new street engine piston to clylinder clearence would be .0025", you measure the piston opposite of the pin bore to get this measurment. If they is a thousand or so wear you probably be ok, if you start flirting with 4 and 5 thousand clearence then I suggest boring. I'm not real good at advicing on patch-up rebuilding, it's just not the world I live in. With the race engine they get freshened up, freshen up emaning no machine work, bearing and ring repalcement, what I do when hone the bore is use one of those crappy three stone hones, and wrap the stone with a sheet of the burgundy stotchbrite and coat the cylinders down with WD40 and hone the cylinders with the stocthbrite, I even do this with freshly bored and hone block, it will give you the best clyinder finish to enhance ring seating, all the nascar teams do this, it's where I learned this trick.
What i do when I rebuild a engine, is measure everything, and thats really the only way you can determenie what has to be doen adn what is acceptable to re use. With drew's engine, his crank journal sizes were just where I wanted them to be without being reground, it magnafluxed ok, and passed the stright check with flying color, so a good cleaning and polish was all it needed. I hardly ever find cylinder on used engine that are not worn and egg shaped, I see alot of car club member thake the freshen up route with old engine, and normally it becmes a smaker in a shrt period of time.
On the Triumph motors like the 1500s, crank end float is a biggie, the 1500's thrust bearing arrangement is less than desirable, so make sure you check that and repalce the thrust bearings they wear like crazy in these motors, ignoring this can lead to the front thrust bearing wearing so thin it falls into the oil pan then every time you press the clutch in the crank is grinding against the rear manin cap, pay close attention to this area of a 1500.
Pay close attention to the fornt aluminum piece that sit between the main cap, it rea easy to strip the threads in it, and using too long of bolt wil result in warping it, I never understood why they didin't make this piece out of stell on the rce engine, sometimes we do just that.
I'm just skimming the surface here, but when it comes to rebuildng a engine, it always cheaper to do it right the first time than have to do it twice. I always here people give me lame excuses to doidn a half baked rebuild, like ' it only a street motor", or " I just want to get my car back on the road", those are comments folks useally live to regret.
What i do when I rebuild a engine, is measure everything, and thats really the only way you can determenie what has to be doen adn what is acceptable to re use. With drew's engine, his crank journal sizes were just where I wanted them to be without being reground, it magnafluxed ok, and passed the stright check with flying color, so a good cleaning and polish was all it needed. I hardly ever find cylinder on used engine that are not worn and egg shaped, I see alot of car club member thake the freshen up route with old engine, and normally it becmes a smaker in a shrt period of time.
On the Triumph motors like the 1500s, crank end float is a biggie, the 1500's thrust bearing arrangement is less than desirable, so make sure you check that and repalce the thrust bearings they wear like crazy in these motors, ignoring this can lead to the front thrust bearing wearing so thin it falls into the oil pan then every time you press the clutch in the crank is grinding against the rear manin cap, pay close attention to this area of a 1500.
Pay close attention to the fornt aluminum piece that sit between the main cap, it rea easy to strip the threads in it, and using too long of bolt wil result in warping it, I never understood why they didin't make this piece out of stell on the rce engine, sometimes we do just that.
I'm just skimming the surface here, but when it comes to rebuildng a engine, it always cheaper to do it right the first time than have to do it twice. I always here people give me lame excuses to doidn a half baked rebuild, like ' it only a street motor", or " I just want to get my car back on the road", those are comments folks useally live to regret.
OP
tosoutherncars
Jedi Knight
Offline
Hi Hap,
Thanks for taking the time to give me your thoughts, I appreciate the professional input!
Yes, I'm following the "freshen up" route you outline above - quick hone, new rod bearings / rings and that's it. I'll touch up the bores with some scotchbrite before reassembly. I agree completely that a proper rebuild requires time, money, precise measurement and a lot more care than I'm devoting to this quickie cleanup.
Thrust washers were done a thousand miles ago, and are still tight. You mention normally finding egg-shaped bores, which I don't doubt. I was very surprised to find my bores to be round & tight! Every dog has his day, I suppose.
Thanks again,
Duncan
Thanks for taking the time to give me your thoughts, I appreciate the professional input!
Yes, I'm following the "freshen up" route you outline above - quick hone, new rod bearings / rings and that's it. I'll touch up the bores with some scotchbrite before reassembly. I agree completely that a proper rebuild requires time, money, precise measurement and a lot more care than I'm devoting to this quickie cleanup.
Thrust washers were done a thousand miles ago, and are still tight. You mention normally finding egg-shaped bores, which I don't doubt. I was very surprised to find my bores to be round & tight! Every dog has his day, I suppose.
Thanks again,
Duncan
Hap Waldrop
Yoda
Offline
Then you should be fine, buy the best bearing you can find, the factory used tri metal bearings, the one most vendors are selling are not, but many are now carrying the King Tri metal, I beleive British Parts Northwest has them, they will last trhee time as long as aluminum one everyone s selling.
OP
tosoutherncars
Jedi Knight
Offline
One piston in, three to go!
OP
tosoutherncars
Jedi Knight
Offline
There we go... all four pistons back into freshly honed bores, with new rod bearings and rings.
Question... for the 1500 oil pan, is there one of the 16 bolts that's longer than the others? They all went in, but one of them (middle rear) won't bite, and now I get the funny feeling I remember something about one of the bolts being different.
Off again tomorrow... will put the head back on, and hopefully get it running.
Question #2... break-in procedure? Just keep the revs down until the rings have a chance to bed in?
Question... for the 1500 oil pan, is there one of the 16 bolts that's longer than the others? They all went in, but one of them (middle rear) won't bite, and now I get the funny feeling I remember something about one of the bolts being different.
Off again tomorrow... will put the head back on, and hopefully get it running.
Question #2... break-in procedure? Just keep the revs down until the rings have a chance to bed in?