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1500 Fireball & timing woes [continued]

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tosoutherncars

tosoutherncars

Jedi Knight
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Hi all,

Thought I'd better start a new thread, see this thread for the backstory.

I can't get my engine started, and it certainly seems to be a timing issue. So, right back to the basics. And, when in doubt... I take pictures. /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

6oclock.jpg





And the second version... after half a cycle.


12oclock.jpg


I realize that the resolution is pretty rough... but is that enough for anyone to confirm whether my TDC is with the rotor at 6 or 12? FWIW, that was taken with the timing marks showing 10 BTDC in both cases, as seen here (each point is four degrees).

timingmarks.jpg


Thoughts?
 
Re: 1500 Fireball & timing woes [continued]

Duncan. Go to bed. If your like me your heads already so scrambled it hurts. I know it is very hard to stop when your so close!
 
Re: 1500 Fireball & timing woes [continued]

Okay I just popped my hood, with my distributor cap on, looking as your pictured my #1 plug wire sits just before 9 o clock. Say approx 8:45. Now if the rotor turns counter clockwise than 12:00 would land before that. 6:00 would be way to far out. Maybe your distributor is that far off. Can you snap a pic with the cap on noting the location of #1 wire. Should be close as were running similar setups
 
Re: 1500 Fireball & timing woes [continued]

heres the pic I posted yesterday. The wires are numbered at the cap but you can see that #1 is about 8:45. Might want to take a shot in the dark and spin out dist to approx the same spot than try to tune by ear. (How to power Tune your Midget) has a great page on setting your timming by ear. It does have to be running however.
IMG_1494.jpg
 
Re: 1500 Fireball & timing woes [continued]

Interesting... that assumes that your distributor and mine both point the rotor in exactly the same direction in relation to the offset key though. And 8:45 is almost 90deg away from where my rotor is pointing at 10 deg BTDC. Does that make sense?

I'm willing to try... but it'll wait until tomorrow, I'd *almost* be sorry if it fired up, it'd scare the neighbours! hehe, open headers at midnight.
 
Re: 1500 Fireball & timing woes [continued]

I had a similar problem a while back and dicovered that my wires are all off 1 position to the right. Not sure how this is possible, but I had only been trying 180 degrees out, and never thought that they could be 1 off. I had to look at an old picture of the car that I took the day I got it and blow it up to trace the wires. Now when I get a car, or while working on it I take a thousand pictures. Digital is cheap and it has saved me many times.
 
Re: 1500 Fireball & timing woes [continued]

I think, just to remove any possible contributing factors, I'll grab a fresh coil, cap & rotor & plugs for tomorrow's attempt. Probably best anyway...
 
Hello Duncan,

"I'll grab a fresh coil, cap & rotor & plugs for tomorrow's attempt"

I would forget those at this stage and go back to basics.
Firstly that number one cylinder is ready to fire, valves 7 and 8 on number FOUR cylinder should be rocking (i.e. one opening and the other closing) as you turn the engine back and fro about TDC. Then set the timing statically, it doesn't even need to be spot on for it to fire.
See where the rotor is pointing and ensure your number one plug lead in the cap corresponds to that. Double check the firing order and that two, three and four leads are connected as they should be. I am assuming that you do have a spark at the plugs of course.

Alec
 
Re: 1500 Fireball & timing woes [continued]

Aha, that might be easier! I must admit, I was having a bit of trouble deciding whether #1 INT had 'just finished closing' in each case...
 
Re: 1500 Fireball & timing woes [continued]

Alec said it. #4 will be starting on it's intake stroke. And it really wouldn't matter where the rotor ends up when "#1 TDC firing" is on the cap, as long as the wires are arranged in the correct order. I.E. #1 lead is where the rotor is then. Dizzy goes anti-clockwise, 1-3-4-2 will get ya the VROOM! /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif
 
VROOOM!! /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

So, here's what I did.

Pulled the valve cover off, jacked the rear left wheel off the ground. Connected the timing light to #1 wire.

Turned over the engine by hand, until the timing marks were at or just before BTDC, and valves 7/8 were both rocking, as suggested above. GREAT advice, very easy. (FYI, at TDC of the exhaust stroke, 7/8 are both dead still, so this is a pretty definitive check, but I did double-check with a piece of solder down the spark plug hole, to confirm that the piston was at the top of its travel.) Confirmed, my TDC is at approximately 12 o'clock.

Now for the confusing part. With the timing light on #1 wire, and the key in the 'run' position (to energize the coil) I continued to turn the rear wheel by hand, very slowly, until the timing light fired. (So I knew the rotor should be lined up with the #1 post in the distributor cap.) Went and pulled the cap... and the rotor looked like it was maybe 20deg *past* the post. Repeated this several times, same result. I have no explanation for this. But
in any case, I used an imaginary line about 20deg behind the rotor, and lined that up with the #1 post with the timing marks set to 10 BTDC.

I barely touched the remote switch I've been using (for timing etc.) and the motor immediately sprung to life, and settled to a nice idle. I put the timing light on it, and it was maybe 20+ BTDC... far left of the scale, in any case. I advanced it toward 10-12 BTDC, and the idle worsened slightly and slowed. I'll follow the correct tuning settings tomorrow.

So, I have no idea why the distributor seems to fire once the rotor is already well past the post, rather than (what my eyes tell me is) a straight line. But, once I let go of what my eyes see, and trust only what the timing light tells me, everything seems fine.

I have to add, even without adjusting any settings on either the Crane / Fireball, or on the Weber, it already starts better than the Zenith-Stromberg (after a $200 rebuild and a complete tune-up by a well-recommended Brit specialist garage.) At the moment, on open headers, it sounds like a Sherman tank, but I can't wait to get it on the road and see what the difference feels like!

Thanks to everyone for taking the time to help me with all your suggestions... Yay, BCF!

Yours, greatly relieved,

-D
 
Re: 1500 Fireball & timing woes [continued]

VERY MANY CONGRADULATIONS!

I love that feeling that you get after what seems like a liifetime of scratching your head and getting frustrated. You should sleep better tonight!
 
Re: 1500 Fireball & timing woes [continued]

Hello Duncan,

glad to hear it.
Many times I've got into a muddle and can't progress and found that going back and doing the basic set up and checks does work.

Alec
 
Re: 1500 Fireball & timing woes [continued]

in my meager experience webers seem to like to run with the timing advanced a fair amount.

mark
 
Re: 1500 Fireball & timing woes [continued]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:]VROOOM!! /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif[/QUOTE]


Yeeeeeeeeeeee haaaaaaw!!!!
 
Re: 1500 Fireball & timing woes [continued]

Nice work.
 
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