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TR6 123Ignition for TR6
- Thread starter DanNagy
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DanNagy
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Thanks Paul. I did an archive search but didn't find anything. I also tried the Petronix, but believe the mechanic who put it in didn't install it correctly, or I needed a hotter coil because the car ran poorly with it. Many others claim an improvement.
Right now I have dual webbers with the original ignition set-up, but think I should be able to get a bit more power out of it.
I also have a free flow exhaust on it, but haven't put tuned headers on yet. My goal is to improve perfomrance, but I don't want to get crazy with mods.
Right now I have dual webbers with the original ignition set-up, but think I should be able to get a bit more power out of it.
I also have a free flow exhaust on it, but haven't put tuned headers on yet. My goal is to improve perfomrance, but I don't want to get crazy with mods.
LastDeadLast
Jedi Knight
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Although I've never used the 123 stuff, I'm a big proponent of getting rid of the stock dizzy. I went through 3 of them before trashing mine. Since I've installed my Mallory, I've never fouled a plug and it starts right up everytime. The fact that nearly everyone keeps a set of points in their trunk "just in case" should tell you something.
TR3driver
Great Pumpkin - R.I.P
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I only keep a spare set of points because they are cheaper and easier to install than a spare electronic ignition.LastDeadLast said:
I've had to walk a lot more often due to aftermarket electronics, than points. Points will almost always get you home, while electronics have a nasty habit of dying completely without warning.
dklawson
Yoda
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I wasn't aware that 123 was available for Triumphs. What's the current cost? The A- and B-Series 123 dizzys run right at $400.
While this is a lot of money, the 123 typically has multiple switch selectable advance curves to allow you to find one suited to your particular state of engine tune/build. Short of spending dyno time to perfectly tweak a mechanical dizzy to your particular engine I don't think you'll find a more versatile off-the-shelf distributor.
Don't compare 123 with Pertronix. Yes, it is electronic ignition but the main selling point isn't that... it's the switch selectable advance curves. I don't have a performance engine in either of my LBCs so I'm not investing in a 123. However, if I were building for power, I'd give the 123 serious consideration.
While this is a lot of money, the 123 typically has multiple switch selectable advance curves to allow you to find one suited to your particular state of engine tune/build. Short of spending dyno time to perfectly tweak a mechanical dizzy to your particular engine I don't think you'll find a more versatile off-the-shelf distributor.
Don't compare 123 with Pertronix. Yes, it is electronic ignition but the main selling point isn't that... it's the switch selectable advance curves. I don't have a performance engine in either of my LBCs so I'm not investing in a 123. However, if I were building for power, I'd give the 123 serious consideration.
R
RonMacPherson
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Dan, which carbs do you have, the downdrafts or sidedrafts?
The downdrafts are good WHEN JETTED PROPERLY for reliability and consistency. I would consider them when replacing the Zeniths if something broke. For performance save money by dialing in the Zeniths.
My recommendations for performance. First good ignition(I use an Allison/Crane ignition with an MSD 6 box. Not a single problem since 87. The only problem I've ever encountered helping friends who had their dpo's Allison/Cranes installed improperly and the primary wire rubs through the insulation.
Then exhaust. What year did you say you had? Some of the factory manifolds, though heavy did have good low-midrange flow, so unless you are going for top end or can find one of the GOOD extractor systems, might want to stay with factory exhaust manifold.
Biggest improvement for power is flow. We've mentioned the carbs, might consider a fuel injection system as price difference isn't that much on some of the megasquirt cars vis a vis triple carbs. Or a supercharger. I would advise to call Ted at TSI Imports and ask him about his hi ratio rocker arms. For without replacing the cam and lifters, the biggest improvement on internal flow is going with hi lift rockers. We're just talking bolt on stuff here. Engine performance mods internally are a whole 'nother shooting match.
The downdrafts are good WHEN JETTED PROPERLY for reliability and consistency. I would consider them when replacing the Zeniths if something broke. For performance save money by dialing in the Zeniths.
My recommendations for performance. First good ignition(I use an Allison/Crane ignition with an MSD 6 box. Not a single problem since 87. The only problem I've ever encountered helping friends who had their dpo's Allison/Cranes installed improperly and the primary wire rubs through the insulation.
Then exhaust. What year did you say you had? Some of the factory manifolds, though heavy did have good low-midrange flow, so unless you are going for top end or can find one of the GOOD extractor systems, might want to stay with factory exhaust manifold.
Biggest improvement for power is flow. We've mentioned the carbs, might consider a fuel injection system as price difference isn't that much on some of the megasquirt cars vis a vis triple carbs. Or a supercharger. I would advise to call Ted at TSI Imports and ask him about his hi ratio rocker arms. For without replacing the cam and lifters, the biggest improvement on internal flow is going with hi lift rockers. We're just talking bolt on stuff here. Engine performance mods internally are a whole 'nother shooting match.
LastDeadLast
Jedi Knight
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piman said:
Alec,
I realize that there are reliable dizzys out there... However, I went through three of them along with a couple of rotors... For me, I got tired of dealing with it and got the Mallory, which I've never had to touch since. At the time, I was looking for performance and reliability and so far the Mallory has given me both. Again not saying that all the Lucas dizzies out there are junk, but the three "rebuilt" units that I had were.
LastDeadLast
Jedi Knight
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Roofman,
I do not think that the 123 has a tach hookup (neither did my Mallory). I had to get my current tach converted to electronic.
I do not think that the 123 has a tach hookup (neither did my Mallory). I had to get my current tach converted to electronic.
Brosky
Great Pumpkin
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I may disagree with Shannon, just a little on this. Not for any particular reason, other than I'm a proponent of the stock distributor and I feel that it's easier to replace the points than anything else.
I did have the Pertronix, but swapped the entire distributor for one with a slightly more aggressive curve. I've since had it recurved to match the points unit and it's in a plastic bag, all sealed up and ready to go, if I ever feel like swapping back.
I also like Jeff's work and he can tailor a nice rebuild to fit you profile.
https://www.74tr6.com/distributor.htm
I'd go this route if I were you!
https://www.74tr6.com/distributoradjustable.htm
I did have the Pertronix, but swapped the entire distributor for one with a slightly more aggressive curve. I've since had it recurved to match the points unit and it's in a plastic bag, all sealed up and ready to go, if I ever feel like swapping back.
I also like Jeff's work and he can tailor a nice rebuild to fit you profile.
https://www.74tr6.com/distributor.htm
I'd go this route if I were you!
https://www.74tr6.com/distributoradjustable.htm
Brosky
Great Pumpkin
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I think that Nisonger or APT Instruments will do it for you.
https://www.nisonger.com/
https://www.gaugeguys.com/
https://www.nisonger.com/
https://www.gaugeguys.com/
OP
DanNagy
Jedi Trainee
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Thanks all, to answer the question, my webers are dual downdrafts and it is a 1974. There is a lot of advice here, and I must say that I am a bit overwhelmed.
I think when I had the Petronix installed it just wasn't done right. The KC mechanic installed that and the webers at the same time and perhaps he was over his head. I think he just threw it in. From the website that Paul gave me, that sounds like a good solution. I was impressed with the care taken in preparation of the Petronix. I also want to check out the Mallory and Allison/Crane. I'll do a web search on that.
I need to think more about what I really want. When I first started to think about it, I just wanted easy start-up, increased fuel efficiency, and good performance. Now I am thinking about Ron McP's comments, and wonder if I shouldn't go a little further.
What would I expect to pay to have Advanced build a distributor with Petronix like that?
I think when I had the Petronix installed it just wasn't done right. The KC mechanic installed that and the webers at the same time and perhaps he was over his head. I think he just threw it in. From the website that Paul gave me, that sounds like a good solution. I was impressed with the care taken in preparation of the Petronix. I also want to check out the Mallory and Allison/Crane. I'll do a web search on that.
I need to think more about what I really want. When I first started to think about it, I just wanted easy start-up, increased fuel efficiency, and good performance. Now I am thinking about Ron McP's comments, and wonder if I shouldn't go a little further.
What would I expect to pay to have Advanced build a distributor with Petronix like that?
Brosky
Great Pumpkin
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Send him your unit with the Pertronix and say you found him here. I can't quote for Jeff, but I'd bet you'll under $100 for a complete overhaul and he can probably save your Pertronix for you.
Give him your carb and engine specs and he'll suggest a nice curve for you, rather than stock.
You can always call him and ask for an estimate to get a rough idea, but I'll bet that you'll be happy with what you get back. Many others here have done just that and I have heard no complaints yet.
Quick turn around if you need it. Just tell Jeff what your problems are and he'll do his best for you.
Give him your carb and engine specs and he'll suggest a nice curve for you, rather than stock.
You can always call him and ask for an estimate to get a rough idea, but I'll bet that you'll be happy with what you get back. Many others here have done just that and I have heard no complaints yet.
Quick turn around if you need it. Just tell Jeff what your problems are and he'll do his best for you.
OP
DanNagy
Jedi Trainee
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Thanks Paul, I'll give it a shot.
By the way, I took a look at your web site and really enjoyed looking at your engine compartment. I am in Korea so this is my "work time" but plan to take a good look at all the pictures tonight. I appreciate your effort and your love. -d
By the way, I took a look at your web site and really enjoyed looking at your engine compartment. I am in Korea so this is my "work time" but plan to take a good look at all the pictures tonight. I appreciate your effort and your love. -d
dklawson
Yoda
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Regarding the tach issue...
Smiths RVI tachs (current impulse type) don't generally like electronic ignitions. (You should find RVI or RVC printed somewhere on the gauge face). I don't know when Triumph may have made a change to the RVC (voltage pulse) sensing design. Regardless, if you have an RVC tach it will connect with a single wire to coil (-) like a modern tach. The RVC tachs will work with Pertronix and 123, I have not heard of any problems using them with Crane/Alison systems.
In addition to Nisonger and APT, you may find that Palo Alto Speedometer can convert your RVC tach but it will not be cheap. There are also a couple of other interesting DIY kits out there. One person you may wish to contact is Theo Smit.
https://members.shaw.ca/tsmit/tachmod/tachmod0.html
Theo has designed a circuit board kit that you can use to convert/update your RVC tach. If I remember correctly, this board will allow you to select whether you want the tachometer to work as current impulse sensing (RVI type) or voltage sensing (RVC type). In short you could update your existing RVI tach to work with your electronic ignition... or convert it to work as voltage sensing and use its simpler wiring arrangement.
Smiths RVI tachs (current impulse type) don't generally like electronic ignitions. (You should find RVI or RVC printed somewhere on the gauge face). I don't know when Triumph may have made a change to the RVC (voltage pulse) sensing design. Regardless, if you have an RVC tach it will connect with a single wire to coil (-) like a modern tach. The RVC tachs will work with Pertronix and 123, I have not heard of any problems using them with Crane/Alison systems.
In addition to Nisonger and APT, you may find that Palo Alto Speedometer can convert your RVC tach but it will not be cheap. There are also a couple of other interesting DIY kits out there. One person you may wish to contact is Theo Smit.
https://members.shaw.ca/tsmit/tachmod/tachmod0.html
Theo has designed a circuit board kit that you can use to convert/update your RVC tach. If I remember correctly, this board will allow you to select whether you want the tachometer to work as current impulse sensing (RVI type) or voltage sensing (RVC type). In short you could update your existing RVI tach to work with your electronic ignition... or convert it to work as voltage sensing and use its simpler wiring arrangement.
Hello Shannon,
I don't know what problems you had with your distributors, but they are fairly basic in operation?. My feeling is that to fit a different distributor is getting the advance curve to match the engine. Whichever manufacturer it is spends a lot of development time to optimise the distributor (or carburettors etc.) for their engine and I imagine that it is difficult to match that with other units.
Alec
I don't know what problems you had with your distributors, but they are fairly basic in operation?. My feeling is that to fit a different distributor is getting the advance curve to match the engine. Whichever manufacturer it is spends a lot of development time to optimise the distributor (or carburettors etc.) for their engine and I imagine that it is difficult to match that with other units.
Alec
TR3driver
Great Pumpkin - R.I.P
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Actually, that part is pretty easy with distributors. The OEM publishes the original information, and it's usually not difficult to match it with a different distributor.piman said:
The problem arises when the OEM advance curve is no longer appropriate, due to engine modifications or changes in available fuel. Arguably the orignal curve was never "optimum" for any conditions, instead it was kind of a "lowest common denominator" to work with most available fuels.