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TR4/4A Water leaking into sump 30 days after rebuild

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tj_tr3_tr6

tj_tr3_tr6

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I need help, I rebuilt my engine on my 62 TR4 and ran it for a month before water started showing up in my oil
moody smiley
It was running great! I immediately pulled the head and found two small cracks from #7 & #9 head bolts to water cavity.
I then took a shortcut and just packed them with JB-weld & sealant when I screwed the head bolts in. I put the head & pan back on and ran it for 10 minutes, drained the oil again, and left it draining all night. When I came out in the morning it
was still slowly dripping, not good. So I pulled the pan and found water dripping from the rear tappet area, not from figure 8 gasket. Has anyone seen this problem? Do I have an internal cracked block? I shot a short video of the drip
and I am trying to upload it for you to see.
Thanks Tim from So California
 

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  • 62 TR4 Leak from rear tappet area _Trim (2).mp4
    1.7 MB
Not sure what to think. I would ask if you put the head studs in finger tight or torqued the head bolts in the block when the head was off and then torqued the head again. In this case the torque compounds and doubles.

Steve
 
Steve-
If you put a click stop torque wrench set at 90 on a head nut, turned it to click, came back tomorrow without having changed the wrench setting, it would click again immediately without moving the nut or stud even another smidgen.
Bob
 
Last edited:
Tim
The water leak could just be the head gasket, liner protrusion, or figure 8 gaskets. But I doubt it and think the crack you described dooms the block.
Bob
 
bobhustead said:
Tim
The water leak could just be the head gasket, liner protrusion, or figure 8 gaskets. But I doubt it and think the crack you described dooms the block.
Bob
Click to expand...
I am not an expert but I have learned (the hard way) and been told to only hand tighten the bolts into the block. I have a block that is also doomed because I tightened the stud into the block.
Charley
 
bobhustead said:
Tim
The water leak could just be the head gasket, liner protrusion, or figure 8 gaskets. But I doubt it and think the crack you described dooms the block.
Bob
Click to expand...
If you were able to see my short video the leak is coming down above the cam lobe which rules out liner 8 .
 
I didn't notice it was a video, just saw it as a still. Block is still almost certainly in need of replacement.
Bob
 
Charley
Certainly hand tight is fine. The Haynes manual recommends "using the double nut method", implying some torque beyond fingers. I use the "single vice grip on the stud shank method". My comment was meant only to address the idea that the torque could compound and double.
Bob
 
Do you have any photos of the cracks in the block?
There are thread repairs that stitch the metal together. The tap is expensive as are the inserts.
CJD had some on one of his threads.

David
 
Your video shows that you have a leak, but it is not any help in diagnosing it. I'm with David, when you say #7 and #9 head bolts, I don't quite understand which bolts that is, as I do not know you numbering technique. That said...

It is very common for mechanics to remove the head, and then try to lift the engine block by putting chains on the head studs. Every time this will crack the block between the head bolts and the water jacket. Once that happens the cooling water has a path from the crack to the stud and up around the stud to the head nut. It is my guess that this is your problem, since you say you have cracks around 2 head studs. It is not repairable with glues or sealants, as you cannot get down into the full length of the crack.

The repair is to use a closed insert in the block, which will seal the stud from the water jacket. Here is a thread on the procedure:

General TR - Block Crack Repair

I finally got back after a bit of a family break and am back to work. I promised I'd follow through with a thread about how to repair the crack in the stud hole in the back of my block. Here is what I started with, in the second pic I highlighted the extent of the crack following the boss well...
www.britishcarforum.com www.britishcarforum.com

My block was numbers matching for my TR2, so I thought it was worth repairing. To be honest, if you do not have an original block for your car, and/or you have more than one crack, then it may not be worth fixing. The inserts will cost more than the price of a used block.
 
OMG--John that series of pics in your block repair sequence is incredible. I have questions. First, what kind of drill press just happens to accept a Triumph block? Next, what kind of hardened steel bit did you use to drill out that hole, and weren't you afraid of weakening the block by drilling such a large hole next to a water jacket/liner bore? What about starting that tap with your drill? Isn't the speed and torque a big risk. I could see something binding or snapping. Didn't that take some guts? Finally, I suppose it occurred to you to buy another block, and you flat out rejected that. Why? I've been told they're plentiful, particularly in England. Is that wrong? Did that fix last and hold all these years?
 
CJD said:
Your video shows that you have a leak, but it is not any help in diagnosing it. I'm with David, when you say #7 and #9 head bolts, I don't quite understand which bolts that is, as I do not know you numbering technique. That said...

It is very common for mechanics to remove the head, and then try to lift the engine block by putting chains on the head studs. Every time this will crack the block between the head bolts and the water jacket. Once that happens the cooling water has a path from the crack to the stud and up around the stud to the head nut. It is my guess that this is your problem, since you say you have cracks around 2 head studs. It is not repairable with glues or sealants, as you cannot get down into the full length of the crack.

The repair is to use a closed insert in the block, which will seal the stud from the water jacket. Here is a thread on the procedure:
Click to expand...

John, this is the first time seeing your comprehensive write-up for both the issue and the fix. You NEED to submit it as a write-up in Basil's "Articles" section here!

As a caution for anyone needing to pull an engine: using any lifting device with a single chain in a "V-load" configuration that puts an angular load on threaded bits is asking for trouble. Cast iron or aluminum, vertical tensile loads only!
 
DrEntropy said:
John, this is the first time seeing your comprehensive write-up for both the issue and the fix. You NEED to submit it as a write-up in Basil's "Articles" section here!

As a caution for anyone needing to pull an engine: using any lifting device with a single chain in a "V-load" configuration that puts an angular load on threaded bits is asking for trouble. Cast iron or aluminum, vertical tensile loads only!
Click to expand...
bolts #7 & 9 refer to the tork sequence , the two outside bolts on the Distributer side of block. I lifted it from the proper lift anchors and I
didnt have this water in my oil issue before I tore it down to do the original rebuild. The drip in the video looks like it comes directly above the cam shaft lob and then goes to the bottom of the lob, seems like maybe a crack near the follower or up the water jacket above.
Anyways I got a hold of a guy Albert hear in Manhattan Beach that has 10 blocks in various degrees of disassembly, going Saturday to pick one up.
 
When lifting the engine with the head off, I put the chain on the stud, a washer over that, a piece of pipe (1/2 or 3/8 DNR) long enuf to reach the threads, another washer then a nut. That way, you don't get the sideways force that cracks the block. And a service that probably does not exist anymore: When I was playing with engines as a teen, we had in Miami a place called Blockweld. I do not know how, but they could arc weld seemingly inaccessible cracks to full effect. They fixed a Chev 283 and an old Jeep flathead block for me.


Bob
 
bobhustead said:
And a service that probably does not exist anymore: When I was playing with engines as a teen, we had in Miami a place called Blockweld. I do not know how, but they could arc weld seemingly inaccessible cracks to full effect. They fixed a Chev 283 and an old Jeep flathead block for me.
Click to expand...
Now, our "disposable society" has made fixing things unprofitable. Even finding a good machinist is becoming difficult.
 
I have a machine shop that I took 1st gear out of a 53 Jag that needed a chip in the follower welded. First thing he said, can't do it, the Brits know how to harden steel. Said it is only the follower for the bronze shifter. I can do that. Dry ice to protect gear, filled chip with weld, good as new. Been in car 5 yrs now.
 
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