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Frame considerations

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J

jcsb

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The frame on my 60 Healey 3000 BN7 seems to be fine, not cosmetically perfect, but in good shape structurally. Yesterday I needed to enlarge the left front outrigger like a BJ8 to accommodate a new exhaust system I have. I drilled a hole in a place in which I would use a hole saw and interesting enough the drill came out with a substance that looked like dark red mud. After drilling with the hole saw and removing the plug I realized the dark red mud was rust. In my 45 years of working and rebuilding cars I've never seen rust like this, it is usually flaking or comes off in chunks. Anyway the interesting part is that the former owner or whoever did it took a new outrigger and welded it over the old one that was rusting rather than remove it. The new on looks fine while the old one is partially there.

So now comes the options:
1) I could clean it out well, try to stabilize the rust, and spray rust converter and proofing into the outrigger. Then weld it up like I wanted to.
2) Cut the newer outrigger off, then cut the old outrigger off, and then weld the newer outrigger back on. I would assume this would require some body parts removal.
3) Since the repair of the original problem was done incorrectly, then possibly there are other areas of concern, even though I don't see any, then maybe I should go for a new frame (ouch).

Your thoughts are appreciated.
John
 
Based on that test ,if I felt economically comfortable with a new frame that is the way I would go .

Patching up an old rusted frame can be just as expensive if not more so.

I do not think the rust is limited to just that spot you fund it in.
 
Keoke said:
Based on that test ,if I felt economically comfortable with a new frame that is the way I would go .

Patching up an old rusted frame can be just as expensive if not more so.

I do not think the rust is limited to just that spot you fund it in.
Click to expand...

Yep, I guess the question is do you pay now or later. I have kinda dropped the hint to my wife that a new frame might be the answer. I am doing a complete mechanical makeover and just wanted some other ideas. Not sure who I should go through Jule or Kilmartin if I decide to do the frame. If I go through Jule if I should just get the frame or the superstructure package. I would like to note that body work is not my thing, but I'm now retired so time is on my side (lol). Wondering how hard it will be to replace the frame? Are there any detail steps out there to changing out the frame?
John
 
Putting in a new frame for some outrigger rust sounds like an over reaction to me. Frame replacement is an enormous job with any Healey. It only makes sense for a full makeover restoration, when the entire car is going to be dismantled anyway.

Put some drain holes in the outriggers you have and try to flush them out the best you can. If new outriggers were installed over the rusty ones, there should be plenty of structural integrity to them. Then drive and enjoy your Healey, just take a look now and then to see if the rust is going anywhere.
 
I agree that a new frame seems like overkill. If you're happy that the car is safe, you're happy with the way the car looks (no obvious rust) and you weren't planning on a restoration anyway for some other reason, then do something along the lines of what Healey 100 suggests. Take steps to minimise the rust advancing, drive and enjoy. Many expensive restorations that have drawn out over years and years have begun with much smaller jobs that were only meant to take hours.... But hey, that's just my opinion.
 
Why not give it the hammer test? A sound frame will not cave in, you have to judge it right of course, but some judicial blows with a ball pein hammer along the chassis rails will give you a clue if it is going to cave in. You could cut away that outrigger and check the old rusty one near the chassis rail. It just depends how far you want to go really.

:cheers:

Bob
 
There is one other consideration and that is the drivers door has a problem with the shut line. I have attached a picture showing the problem. Passenger side looks good. There's no way of adjusting the door to compensate and have it fit. It looks as though the top of the door opening is closer than the bottom. Considering what I found with the outrigger this might make since. I'm starting to think I need to investigate that to determine the direction I should go.
John P1010025l.jpg
 
John,

Stick a jack on the x member of the frame and jack the car up. Does anything happen to the shut lines? That is, does the door opening get bigger or smaller? Do the same on the corners of the frame--jack up the car and see if it twists at all judging by the door openings. Test that first. If you have movement to speak of then possibly you need some repair, but that could also be limited to the crusty outrigger. A frame replacement is a complete tear down of the car. If it really does need a frame you would likely know it already by general infirmity,looseness, scuttle shake, doors flying open or stuck closed--things like that.
 
When I started my 1960 BN7 restoration, I invested in a bore scope, around $250, It has really paid for itself. I ended up not replacing the total frame and was able to do section or spot repairs on identified areas of concern and saved a bundle.
 
My '63 BJ7 didn't show obvious rust on the frame underneath. I tapped with a hammer, stabbed with a screw driver. Seemed fine. The floor pans were a little tender so I pulled them out and found that the top of the frame was rusted through in spots and very thin in others. You can't see the top of the frame without cutting things up a bit. Junk and moisture gets stuck on top of the frame. Moisture gets trapped inside. These frames rust from the inside out. I took it apart and delivered it to Marty. He had the whole thing sand blasted to see what could be used. That exposed weakness that I hadn't expected. I now have a Jule frame. It was the right thing for my car. It is a HUGE project though. Never ending. I will add one more thing. I have little experience with frames but have repaired countless rusty body panels over the last 40 years. There is always at least five times more rust damage than you can see before grinding/cutting/etc... Just my experience. Good luck with it. I love my Healey.
Dale
 
RestoreThemAll said:
My '63 BJ7 didn't show obvious rust on the frame underneath. I tapped with a hammer, stabbed with a screw driver. Seemed fine. The floor pans were a little tender so I pulled them out and found that the top of the frame was rusted through in spots and very thin in others. You can't see the top of the frame without cutting things up a bit. Junk and moisture gets stuck on top of the frame. Moisture gets trapped inside. These frames rust from the inside out. I took it apart and delivered it to Marty. He had the whole thing sand blasted to see what could be used. That exposed weakness that I hadn't expected. I now have a Jule frame. It was the right thing for my car. It is a HUGE project though. Never ending. I will add one more thing. I have little experience with frames but have repaired countless rusty body panels over the last 40 years. There is always at least five times more rust damage than you can see before grinding/cutting/etc... Just my experience. Good luck with it. I love my Healey.
Dale
Click to expand...
My original frame was all bent and beat-up underneath. Nothing was smooth and straight! I had compression bulges in the front areas in the engine compartment, There was rust where I couldn't see it but I was sent the photos from Jule after they sandblasted the frame. Not a pretty sight. The car went down the road straight and true but I think I was on borrowed time so to speak. I wouldn't do anything less of the complete package with a Jule Frame. Let them fit the superstructure because it's the hardest to line up. I'll see if I can find my Jule Frame pics after the sandblasting and post later.
 
Patrick67BJ8 said:
My original frame was all bent and beat-up underneath. Nothing was smooth and straight! I had compression bulges in the front areas in the engine compartment, There was rust where I couldn't see it but I was sent the photos from Jule after they sandblasted the frame. Not a pretty sight. The car went down the road straight and true but I think I was on borrowed time so to speak. I wouldn't do anything less of the complete package with a Jule Frame. Let them fit the superstructure because it's the hardest to line up. I'll see if I can find my Jule Frame pics after the sandblasting and post later.
Click to expand...

Thanks to everyone for their input. Patrick I would like to see the pics if you can find them. I should also mention that this will be my daily driver for 6 months of the year so I want it right. Not looking forward to all the additional work though if it proves to be best to replace the frame.
John
 
Keoke said:
JCSB

Harbor Freight Has: Flexible Bore Scope On Sale


Click to expand...

Thanks, but this is where I have an advantage. I owned a machine shop where we had a professional bore scope, so this won't be an issue. The only concern I have with that is I would expect to see rust, but not know the depth. I could see areas such as the rail tops from within which I wouldn't be able to see normally. Another tool I have is a sonic gauge for measuring wall thickness. Works within .002" tolerance, but not sure what type readings I will have when it experiences rust.

I'm starting to think I'm not going to be happy unless I get a new frame considering all the other things I'm doing. Are there any detailed steps on stripping down the body and re-assembling it?

John
 
jcsb said:
Are there any detailed steps on stripping down the body and re-assembling it?

John
Click to expand...

Not that I am aware of--you'll need to keep careful notes of the order you took things off, and then bag up and mark everything so you remember what it is. And take TONS of digital pictures!! Absolutely every piece, nut, bolt, line, wire--everything--needs to come off. If all components are clean and in good condition, the advantage you'd have is that everything can just be put back on. If there are any cruddy components, obviously that is the convenient time to rebuild them.
 
Are there any detailed steps on stripping down the body and re-assembling it?

You will need the frame structure locating diagram with measurements I have seen one but do not have one.?
 
I got one for the 100/6 and 3000 but its to big to post
Pm the car type and I will look in the other books I have
 
jcsb said:
Thanks to everyone for their input. Patrick I would like to see the pics if you can find them. I should also mention that this will be my daily driver for 6 months of the year so I want it right. Not looking forward to all the additional work though if it proves to be best to replace the frame.
John
Click to expand...
Here's a few photos of my frame after sandblasting at Jule. What you don't see is the compression bulges. Both motor mounts were leaning to one side showing that the frame was twisted. I bought the car wrecked and the PO had side-swiped a utilility pole and I assume that the motor took the frame at the impact and twisted it.
 

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John, Check the frame for basic structural integrity and call it good. If your car runs , drives and looks ok so what? Don't go overboard on this one as you'll never recoup your money or time invested. A frame replacement is something I'd consider only on a car that already needed a complete restoration and it would have to be the right model. Make sure you have plenty of insurance on it so if its a total loss you can go buy a better car.
 
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